1 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 DINO ROSSI, 3 sworn as a witness by the Notary Public, 4 testified as follows: 5 6 EXAMINATION 7 8 BY MR. WITHEY: 9 Q. Good morning, can you state your name and give 10 your address for the record, please. 11 A. Dino Rossi. My address is 24632 Southeast 2nd 12 Place, Sammamish, Washington, 98074. 13 Q. Mr. Rossi, my name is Mike Withey, I represent 14 Justices Utter and Ireland. I have some questions for 15 you this morning. Mr. Lowney will also have a few 16 later. If you don't understand any questions or feels 17 too vague or unintelligible to answer, could you ask me 18 to rephrase it? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. And you've had your deposition taken before? 21 A. Only with the Public Disclosure Commission. 22 Q. The court reporter would probably appreciate 23 it if you didn't use uh-huhs or huh-uhs, and the same 24 with you so that she can get a verbal transcript. 25 Agreeable? 2 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Understood. 3 Q. Do you understand this is a deposition taken 4 pursuant to the civil rules and Judge Kallas's orders 5 and that you're under oath and it may be used at a time 6 of either hearing or at trial in this case? 7 A. Understood. 8 Q. And first of all, have you received Exhibit 1 9 which is the Subpoena Duces Tecum that was issued to you 10 that was the subject of some legal -- 11 A. Which is this one? 12 Q. This is a Subpoena that directs you to bring 13 certain documents with you. Have you brought any 14 documents with you, Mr. Rossi? 15 A. I have not brought documents. 16 Q. Have you conducted a search to determine 17 whether there's any documents that are responsive to the 18 Subpoena Duces Tecum? 19 A. I did look. 20 Q. And where did you look? 21 A. My computer. That's where it would have been. 22 Q. Where is the computer? 23 A. At my -- in my office. 24 Q. Did you search your personal residence? 25 A. Yes, I looked. 3 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. And how long did it take you to look at your 3 personal residence? 4 A. Well, my personal residence, probably about a 5 half an hour at the most. 6 Q. Did you search your campaign headquarters for 7 any documents? 8 A. Looked. 9 Q. Did you search any business offices? 10 A. I don't have any other business offices. 11 Q. Okay. And was there anyone other than 12 yourself that participated in this search? 13 A. Not for my personal. 14 Q. All right. And when did you do the search? 15 A. Shortly after this was received. 16 Q. And how did you go about determining whether 17 any documents that you had were responsive? 18 A. I searched for BIAW. 19 Q. Anything else? 20 A. That was the main search I did because that 21 was -- seemed to be the concern here. 22 Q. Well, it also refers to other local affiliated 23 builder groups; correct? United B? 24 A. Well, that's part of the BIAW, isn't it? I 25 don't know. 4 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. Well, did you find any documents that you 3 looked through to determine whether they were needed to 4 comply with the Subpoena? 5 A. I didn't find any documents, any e-mails. 6 Q. Okay. And what kind of electronic search did 7 you do? Did you just put in BIAW then? 8 A. Yeah, outlook search. 9 Q. Anything else? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you review any of your phone records? 12 A. No. I didn't look at the phone records. 13 Q. You said that the only other deposition you 14 gave was with the Public Disclosure Commission; is that 15 correct? 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. You have to answer audibly, sir. 18 A. Yes, I'm sorry. 19 Q. Was that under oath? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And who was the person who took that 22 deposition? 23 A. I don't remember his name. 24 Q. And what did you do to prepare for this 25 deposition, Mr. Rossi? 5 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. This one today? 3 Q. Yes, sir. 4 A. Met with my counsel for about an hour this 5 morning. 6 Q. And I'm not going to ask you to disclose 7 anything that you said to him or he said to you but did 8 you review any documents? 9 A. I read the lawsuit that you folks had filed, 10 and I read that portion of it. 11 Q. And in addition to the lawsuit, did you review 12 any documents, minutes or other documents that might 13 refresh your recollection about occurrences in the past? 14 A. What was in the documents that you had put, 15 the excerpts that you had. 16 Q. Okay. Other than what was in the complaint in 17 the case, did you review any other documents? 18 A. I don't know what other documents there would 19 be. What kind of documents are you talking about? 20 Q. Well, for instance, did you review any PDC 21 findings? 22 A. PDC findings -- 23 Q. Yes. 24 A. From where? 25 Q. From any time. 6 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Concerning what? 3 Q. Concerning, including concerning yourself and 4 concerning the BIAW member services corporation, any of 5 the master builders association, anything related to the 6 PDC that the PDC published. 7 A. The book? 8 Q. Which book -- 9 MR. PATTERSON: I'm going to consult my client 10 here for a minute. 11 A. All I looked at was the complaint that you had 12 and -- from your lawsuit, and I read that. 13 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) And the attachments? 14 A. And the attachments. 15 Q. All right. So if the and the attachments 16 didn't have any PDC documents fair enough? 17 A. Yeah, the attachments. 18 Q. Did you speak to anyone other than your 19 attorneys about this deposition? 20 A. Talked to my wife about it last night that 21 we're going into a political charade. 22 Q. Did you discuss your deposition with anybody 23 in the press this morning? 24 A. This morning, no. 25 Q. Did you have a press conference this morning? 7 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Yes, I did have a press conference but I -- 3 Q. Was the subject matter of this deposition and 4 the lawsuit? 5 A. Yes, we talked about the lawsuit from the 6 standpoint of -- and what I said this morning was that 7 this is one of the reasons why it was difficult to make 8 a decision to run for public office, and which is the 9 fact that having a political lawsuit like this being 10 filed and then being forced off the campaign trail when 11 I should have been today at the Seattle rotary giving a 12 speech or doing TV interviews and radio interviews, have 13 been taken off the campaign trail for political purposes 14 to answer the questions that I already did at the PDC, 15 they did a six-month investigation, whether I was a 16 candidate or not. And Christine Gregoire's political 17 operatives did a phony complaint, they did extensive 18 Subpoenas, not Subpoenas but depositions from people 19 across the state and they determined I wasn't a 20 candidate for office until December -- or sorry, October 21 of -- 11 of 2007. And because I wasn't a candidate. 22 The likelihood of me running again really wasn't all 23 that high for quite a while there. 24 Q. This is what you told the press this morning? 25 A. Uh-huh. 8 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. You have to answer audibly. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you've given other press statements about 5 this case, fair enough? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you understand that when you were giving 8 press statements you weren't under oath, fair enough? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And now you are under oath and it's your 11 statement, I would assume that what you told the press 12 was true; correct? 13 A. I told the press -- 14 Q. The truth? 15 A. I told them the truth. Their characterization 16 of what I said may be something different. 17 Q. Other than your wife, did you discuss this 18 deposition with Jill Strait? 19 A. My press secretary, yes. 20 Q. Yes. And did you discuss this with any 21 officers or board member of the BIAW Member Service 22 Corporation, Master Builders Association? 23 A. No. 24 Q. And you understand that the law firm Davis 25 Wright Tremaine is here representing the Building 9 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Industry Association of Washington; correct? 3 A. There's the lawyer. You're on behalf of? 4 MR. MAGUIRE: BIAW. 5 A. Both of you are. 6 MR. PATTERSON: For the record, I just want to 7 make sure that it's understood that Mr. Rossi is not a 8 party to this litigation. I am representing him here. 9 MR. WITHEY: Right. 10 MR. PATTERSON: And certainly for the press or 11 if you're trying to make a record here for any purpose, 12 BIAW is a party to this lawsuit and has an absolute 13 right to be here in this room. 14 MR. WITHEY: Absolutely. I never would 15 challenge that, Mr. Patterson. 16 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) But that's the same firm that 17 represented you in the election challenge in 2004; 18 correct? 19 A. That's true. 20 Q. Was your consent asked to allow your prior 21 firm the builders association of Washington in this 22 case? 23 A. I don't recall being asked. 24 Q. Now, are you generally familiar with the 25 provisions of the campaign finance laws and public 10 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 disclosure act in this state? 3 A. Generally. 4 Q. And you are aware that the people passed an 5 initiatives back in the '70s; correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Pardon me if I don't know your full political 8 history. Did you happen to be in the legislature, take 9 any votes on this law, if you can recall? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 Q. Have you read the law? 12 A. I've read parts of the law. 13 Q. Have you read any PDC interpretations of the 14 law other than in your own case that you've already 15 referred to? 16 A. Not that I recall. 17 Q. Have you received or read any candidate's 18 guidelines to the public disclosure law or campaign 19 finance law? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. Would you agree that it's the responsibility 22 of a candidate or a would be candidate for office to 23 have -- to know the provisions of the campaign finance 24 law in this state? 25 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 11 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question. Insofar as you're referring to that he can do 3 that without consultation or advice from attorneys or 4 other advisors. 5 MR. WITHEY: Mike, first of all, all 6 objections as on the relevancy and scope are preserved, 7 you're certainly entitled to make a form objection but 8 as you know speaking objections are improper. So I 9 assume you're objecting to the form. 10 MR. PATTERSON: That's not a speaking 11 objection. It's to the form and it's an opportunity to 12 correct your question, if I think you're appropriate. 13 And I will make whatever objections I think are 14 appropriate during this deposition. 15 MR. WITHEY: Well, Mr. Rossi, the question was 16 do you agree that a candidate or would be candidate has 17 a responsibility to knowing the basic provisions of the 18 campaign finance laws. 19 A. That's the same question again, isn't it? 20 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You get to answer it now? 21 MR. PATTERSON: I'm going to object to the 22 form of the question -- hang on. Objection to the form 23 of the question insofar as you're asking him for a 24 opinion statement. You can ask him, he's a fact witness 25 in this case, he's not an expert in this case, okay? 12 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 And if you want to ask him about what he believes is his 3 responsibility you can ask him that, but as to what 4 other responsibility, what other candidate's 5 responsibilities are, that's an opinion question. 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. 7 MR. PATTERSON: No, he's not going to answer 8 that question. 9 MR. WITHEY: Are you instructing him not to 10 answer the question? 11 MR. PATTERSON: Not in that form. You're 12 asking him an opinion question. 13 MR. WITHEY: You understand that's an opinion 14 question. This is obstructing in the extreme. I'll 15 ask -- 16 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on. I need to make any 17 record here, Mr. Withey, I'm not refusing to allow you 18 to ask this witness as to what his knowledge is of that 19 knowledge that law, what he expects him to have insofar 20 as the knowledge of that law, who he's consulted with 21 with regard to that law, but to ask him what the 22 responsibilities of other candidates are in this state 23 is inappropriate, you know it, he's a fact witness, he's 24 not an opinion witness in this case. 25 MR. WITHEY: All right. 13 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree it's your 3 responsibility as a candidate for the highest office in 4 this state to have a basic understanding of the campaign 5 finance laws? 6 A. I have a basic understanding of the campaign 7 finance laws, right. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a 8 lawyer. 9 Q. I assume that your answer is yes? 10 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on. Would you let him 11 please answer his question. You've interrupted him. 12 Let him answer the question. Go ahead, Mr. Rossi. 13 A. Yeah, candidates, most candidates I know have 14 a basic understanding of the campaign law. Maybe not as 15 in depth as a lawyer as yourself or the other ones 16 sitting around this table, but most understand the law 17 and as far as the contributions and how those work and 18 declaration of the candidate. 19 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Great. How many different 20 offices have you run for in your political career? 21 A. I've run for the state senate and I've run for 22 governor. 23 Q. In how many campaigns? 24 A. Three state senate and two governor. 25 Q. And in the process of those elections, you had 14 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 to get to know some of the provisions of the law that 3 you've just described; correct? 4 A. True. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey, I hope that we are 6 going to get to the core issues here because this is not 7 a wide open deposition. The judge very adroitly 8 indicated that it is very much restricted to your 9 preelection remedy issues, and I don't think that asking 10 these general questions is really moving that concept 11 forward. 12 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, do you agree that 13 the public disclosure of campaign finances is in the 14 public interest? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 16 question insofar as you're asking an opinion question. 17 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. 18 MR. PATTERSON: You can answer that question. 19 THE WITNESS: What's that? 20 MR. PATTERSON: You can go ahead and answer. 21 A. Repeat the question, the court reporter. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree? 23 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you believe it's part of 15 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 the voter's right to know? 3 MR. PATTERSON: You know, I'm going -- I'm 4 going to object to these questions. 5 MR. WITHEY: You have a continuing objection, 6 Mike. You can instruct him not to answer. 7 MR. PATTERSON: You know, Mr. Withey, what 8 you're doing here is exactly what this lawsuit is all 9 about. It's a political charade, and what you're 10 putting on is a show for the press. The judge has ruled 11 that this deposition is on a very narrow concept here, 12 let's get to it and let's get off of your script here 13 for the press purposes and get on to the issues in this 14 case. 15 MR. WITHEY: Are you instructing your witness 16 not to answer that? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. I'm just warning 18 you if we're going to go down this path much longer 19 here, I'm going to ask for assistance. But you're not 20 here to make a speech or make a record for the press, 21 you're here to ask some narrow questions about what the 22 concept is that the judge indicated was in play here. 23 MR. WITHEY: Which happens to be whether he 24 violated the campaign finance laws so I need to know his 25 knowledge about it. Would you be willing to answer that 16 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question. 3 MR. PATTERSON: It's not about that at all. 4 MR. WITHEY: The BIAW -- 5 MR. PATTERSON: He's not a party to this I 6 say. 7 MR. WITHEY: If we continue to this immediate 8 I'm going to ask the judge to intervene. 9 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, do you believe 10 that the public disclosure finance act is the party 11 right to know? 12 Q. Do you agree that the public's right to know 13 of the financing of public elections and political 14 campaigns outweighs your own right to privacy as a 15 candidate? 16 A. I think it's a good idea for the public to 17 know. 18 Q. And have you -- are you aware of the provision 19 in the law that the financial strength of certain 20 individuals' organizations should not prevent or permit 21 them to exercise a disproportionate or controlling 22 influence on the election of candidates? 23 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 24 question. What does that have to do with the issues 25 here? 17 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. WITHEY: That's a relevancy objection. 3 MR. PATTERSON: It's all of the above, okay? 4 Go ahead and answer it is question. 5 A. I'm not sure what the question is. 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware of the 7 provisions of the state law passed by the people that 8 states that the financial strength of certain 9 individuals and organizations should not permit them to 10 exercise a disproportionate or controlling influence on 11 the election of candidates? 12 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 13 question. Insofar as it's a general question and it's 14 not relevant to any of the issues here, but go ahead. 15 A. I have not read that in the law. 16 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree with that 17 principle personally? 18 A. Explain what the principle is to me. 19 Q. The financial strength of certain individuals 20 and organizations should not permit them to exercise a 21 disproportionate or controlling influence on the 22 election of candidates? 23 A. Oh you mean like SCIU helping pay for lawsuits 24 like this, fuse and other ones that are are paying for 25 sham lawsuits like this one, is that what you're talking 18 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 about? 3 Q. No, I'm asking you generally do you agree with 4 that principle? 5 MR. PATTERSON: No, he's already asked you and 6 he's narrowed it down. He's answered the question. 7 Move on Mr. Withey. 8 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you agree with the 9 principle that or are you aware of the principle in the 10 initiative passed by the people that limiting campaign 11 finances include reducing the influence of large 12 organizational contributors? 13 MR. PATTERSON: You know, you're not here to 14 interview him as a candidate, okay? What does this have 15 to do with the issues? Please educate me, Mr. Withey. 16 MR. LOWNEY: Mr. Patterson. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Lowney. 18 MR. WITHEY: Mike, you either instruct him 19 toant or not. It's your call. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on a second. I want to 21 set the rule straight. You're both allowed to ask 22 questions here but they're not going to be duplicitive 23 questions and whoever is asking the question is the one 24 who is going to object. So Mr. Lowney, as long as 25 Mr. Withey is on the table here you can continue to work 19 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 on your laptop and do those sorts of things but you're 3 not to be heard, okay? 4 MR. LOWNEY: I wasn't talking about the 5 specific questions objections. 6 MR. PATTERSON: You're going to have a chance 7 to speak again. 8 MR. WITHEY: I'll take care of this. As long 9 as you agree that the objections to the relevancy. Let 10 me finish. This is a disaster. I'm going to ask 11 another question. 12 MR. PATTERSON: You know what the disaster is, 13 is that you've got this whole litany of questions 14 written out for press consumption that has nothing to do 15 with the issues here. Please educate me as to why -- 16 MR. WITHEY: I don't need to educate you. I'm 17 going to ask another question. Are you going to 18 obstruct me from answering question of a question. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on. I'm going to have 20 the question read back. 21 MR. WITHEY: I'm going to rephrase it. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware that the 23 initiative of the people stated that limiting campaign 24 contributions could reduce the influence of large 25 organizational contributors? 20 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. That's true, it could reduce, and a group's 3 like SCIU, the federal employees, and fuse, Evergreen 4 process and all the other ones that are behind this 5 frivolous lawsuit. 6 Q. Do you agree that the BIAW is a large 7 organizational contributor? 8 A. They're not as big as those big. They're big 9 but not as big as those groups. 10 Q. Are you familiar with time PAC, Washington 11 affordable housing council? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Do you know they're PACs of the bye? 14 A. I know the PAC of change PAC. 15 Q. And what con treat discrepancy if any has your 16 campaign taken to reduce the influence of either the 17 BIAW or its PACs in this election, if any? 18 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 19 question. Insofar as it infers and implies that they 20 have an obligation to somehow reduce the amount of money 21 that's coming into the coffers, but go ahead. 22 A. Well, the money that isn't coming into my 23 coffers, money is being spent independently just like 24 Evergreen process and SCIU and others, and so if that's 25 what you're talking about. And that's going to 21 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Christine Gregoire who you both are working on behalf 3 of. 4 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you know anyone, any large 5 organizational contributor that has raised over six and 6 a half million dollars for activities other than the 7 BIAW and its PACs? 8 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 9 question. What does this have to do with the issues in 10 this lawsuit? 11 MR. WITHEY: One of the issues is whether the 12 BIAW is a political committee. I'm asking you that -- 13 MR. PATTERSON: That is not an issue for this 14 deposition. 15 MR. WITHEY: Of course it is. 16 MR. PATTERSON: No, it is not. Whether or not 17 the BIAW is a political committee or not is absolutely 18 not germane to this deposition of Mr. Rossi, and if you 19 want to get Judge Kallas on the phone with regard to 20 that issue, we'll go ahead and do that. 21 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you going to answer the 22 question? The question was, are you aware of anyone 23 other than the BIAW and its PACs that have raised over 6 24 million dollars for its activity? 25 A. Yes. SCIU have raised over 20 million. I 22 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 don't know what they're doing with all the money, 3 they're spending it independently now, so it could all 4 be coming here, who knows. 5 Q. You've made statements to the press about 6 phone calls or meetings and conversations you had with 7 people in the BIAW and other builder associations before 8 you declared your candidacy for governor; correct? 9 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 10 question. It's compound, you need to break it down, 11 Mr. Withey. 12 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Have you made statements to 13 the press about contacts or phone calls you've made to 14 BIAW related to before you publicly declared for 15 governor; correct? 16 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 17 question. I don't quite understand it. It is compound. 18 You talk about phone calls and contacts. Could you 19 break it down so that it's not compound? 20 MR. WITHEY: I don't know how many times I 21 have to tell you, the objection to the relevancy and 22 form of the question should be stated. No speaking 23 objections are allowed. 24 MR. PATTERSON: I'm not giving a speaking 25 objections. Mr. Withey -- 23 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. WITHEY: I'll rephrase, okay? 3 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey, for the record, I 4 have an obligation, okay, for your purposes to make sure 5 that you understand why I'm objecting to the form of the 6 question so that you can make corrections to it. 7 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you make a statement to 8 the press that because you have not declared yourself as 9 a candidate until, was it October of 2007? 10 A. October 11 of 2007. 11 Q. But because you had not declared yourself as a 12 candidate on October 11, 2007, you were free to make 13 calls on behalf of the BIAW adding that -- and 14 discussing master builders' participation in their 15 political activities? 16 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 17 question in that it's compound. You're reading from a 18 document and I want in all fairness the witness to take 19 a look at the document before he answers that question. 20 Can you please hand the witness the document? 21 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Without reviewing the 22 document do you know whether you made such a statement? 23 A. Let me see what you're referring to. 24 Q. So you can't determine whether -- 25 MR. PATTERSON: No, he's not saying that. 24 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. WITHEY: You're interrupting me, Mike. 3 MR. PATTERSON: He has a right to take a look 4 at the document you're reading from before he answers 5 the question. 6 (Deposition Exhibit 2 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) This is Exhibit 2, an article 9 from the Chris McGann PI capital lawsuit targets Rossi's 10 relationship with builders. On the second page, 11 Mr. Rossi -- 12 MR. PATTERSON: Could you give the date on 13 this, please? 14 MR. WITHEY: Would you please stop 15 interrupting me. 16 MR. PATTERSON: No, we need the date on this. 17 MR. WITHEY: Well, the date's on the exhibit. 18 MR. PATTERSON: But for the record. 19 MR. WITHEY: Why don't we need the date for 20 the record? You can make a date, it's October 7, 2008. 21 This is harassment and we -- 22 MR. PATTERSON: It's not harrassment. 23 MR. WITHEY: It is. You can't interrupt me 24 and ask me a question. I'm not here to answer your 25 questions. 25 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on, Mr. Withey. We're 3 going to get some rules set here and you know what the 4 rules are. You certainly tried cases before and I've 5 tried cases before, but if you're going to read a 6 document then he's entitled to take a look at it. And 7 for the record, I wanted you to identify the date of 8 this particular document. 9 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Have you had a chance to read 10 the yellow marked portions of it? Is that an accurate 11 quote? 12 A. That I hadn't declared myself a candidate. 13 Obviously I had not. 14 Q. And you were free to make calls on behalf of 15 the BIAW? 16 A. To try to repair a relationship problem that 17 they had with the Seattle Master Builders. 18 Q. So is this statement, the yellow marked, 19 accurate or accurate in part or inaccurate? 20 A. Well, it's not -- yeah, the call was about 21 making -- bringing them back together. 22 Q. You took -- is it your position that any 23 contact you had with BIAW or MSC or master builders 24 association, you consider to be completely legal before 25 you declared your candidacy for governor? 26 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 3 question in that it asks for a legal conclusion, number 4 one. Number two is that it's incomplete. Go ahead. 5 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer the question? 6 A. Well, you know, I was not a candidate for 7 governor, and at the time all that happened I was about 8 75 percent sure I would not run for office, and the 9 reason I was pretty sure at that point in time, pretty 10 close that I would not run for office, is because of 11 this sort of thing, us sitting here today. You know, 12 the fact that you folks served Subpoenas at my home 13 pounding at 9:30 at night on the door, serving my 14 teenage daughter with a Subpoena, this is the kind of 15 nonsense that you have to go through for someone to run 16 for public office. And so taking my family through that 17 again, I'd already been through it once, and I've been 18 through a very difficult campaign and through the 19 election contest on top of that. And so to want to go 20 through this again, you know, you folks have proven my 21 case. 22 MR. WITHEY: Move to strike as nonresponsive. 23 Could the reporter read the question back. 24 MR. PATTERSON: It is very responsive to the 25 question that was asked. 27 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I answered the question. Why don't you want 3 me to answer your question? 4 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 5 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. But go ahead. 6 A. My contacts with them were certainly legal. I 7 was want a candidate for governor. I was about 75 8 percent sure I wouldn't run for public office at that 9 point in time because the toll it takes on the family. 10 Just like you folks, what you've done with me in 11 bringing me here today in the last week of the campaign, 12 serving my teenage daughter at my home with a Subpoena 13 for me for a lawsuit I'm not even a party to. So, yes, 14 this is a -- this is truly a more harassment than 15 anything else. But am I able to do that? I was not a 16 candidate, I wasn't soliciting money for me as a 17 candidate? Not true. 18 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Okay, so you did have 19 contacts with the BIAW and the master builders 20 association before October 11, 2007, related to your 21 candidacy; correct? 22 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 23 question. 24 A. That's completely false. 25 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) What was your contact with 28 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 the BIAW then related to? 3 MR. PATTERSON: Can we get a clarification 4 here please? Objection to the form of the question. 5 What was your contact with BIAW when? 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Next series of questions -- 7 A. No, hold it. 8 Q. No, you don't interrupt me. The next series 9 of questions, Mr. Rossi, relates to the time before you 10 declared candidacy. Do we have that understanding? 11 MR. PATTERSON: So this is all prior to 12 October 11, 2007? 13 MR. WITHEY: Yes, correct. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead, you can clarify 15 that. 16 A. I want the court reporter to read back what 17 you said before. Because I think you said I was a 18 candidate, which I wasn't. 19 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) No, it doesn't matter, I'm 20 going to withdraw the question and rephrase it. 21 A. I want to make sure what is on this record. 22 Q. We're entitled to do that, Mr. Rossi. We're 23 going to go to the next question. Did you make -- 24 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on hang on hang on. 25 Q. Mr. Rossi, I'm going to ask the next question. 29 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 You can't interrupt my question. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on, hang on. I want to 4 make it clear that whatever is on the record here and I 5 don't know because I'm not looking at the realtime here, 6 that if you did misspeak, that it's clear that Mr. Rossi 7 was not a candidate prior to October 11, 2007. 8 A. I think that's what you said. 9 Q. Because you had not declared until then; 10 correct? 11 A. Because I had not declared until then? 12 Q. Yes. You were not a candidate because you 13 were not declared until October 11 -- 14 Q. Let me finish. You can't interrupt my 15 question. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. You don't need to 17 stare me down, Mr. Withey. This is supposed to be an 18 honorable profession, I would expect that your client, 19 Ms. Gregoire, and Justices Utter and Justice Ireland 20 would expect you to act with all due did he cough rum. 21 MR. WITHEY: I was waiting to see if you were 22 done, Mike. 23 MR. PATTERSON: No, you were staring at me. 24 (Deposition Exhibit 3 was marked for 25 identification.) 30 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) This is Seattle Times article 3 December 28th, ex judges target building industry group 4 Rossi and the yellow marked portion if I could read it 5 to you, sir. Rossi spokeswoman Jill Straight also 6 denied the former judge's claim saying Rossi's 7 discussions with building industry officials came before 8 he was officially a candidate for office. 9 Is that a true statement by Jill straight? 10 A. I was not a candidate for office. 11 Q. But she represented to the press that Rossi's 12 discussion with building industry officials came before 13 he was officially candidate for office. Is that part of 14 the statement true as well? 15 A. Yeah, I was not a candidate for office. 16 Q. But did you have discussions with building 17 industry officials before you became a candidate for 18 office? 19 MR. PATTERSON: About what? 20 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) as indicated in this article? 21 MR. PATTERSON: Have him read the article 22 then. 23 A. What was indicated in the article? 24 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) No, as indicated in this 25 sentence. 31 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 3 question. Vague, ambiguous. 4 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm not asking you to agree 5 to anything above, Mr. Rossi, I'm just saying did you 6 have discussions with building -- as Jill represented to 7 the press, did you have discussions with building 8 industry officials before you officially declared as a 9 candidate? 10 MR. PATTERSON: As to what? 11 MR. WITHEY: As to anything. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form 134 as 13 to anything. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Well, objection to the form. 15 As to anything, you mean about whether it was with 16 regard to politics or the weather or anything of that 17 sort? 18 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer. 19 MR. MAGUIRE : I'll object. It 20 mischaracterizes what the document says. 21 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it? 22 MR. PATTERSON: This is unrelated to this 23 article then, is that correct, that question? 24 Mr. Withey. 25 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you going to answer the 32 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question? 3 MR. WITHEY: I'm asking if he's going to 4 answer the question. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Let's have it read back. 6 MR. WITHEY: This is unbelievable. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey. 8 MR. WITHEY: I'm going to discontinue. This is 9 the grossest obstruction I've ever seen I'm going to 10 call the judge, we're going to get her on the line and 11 have the deposition read to her. No, that's it. You 12 went over the line, Mike. Is there a phone in this? 13 MR. PATTERSON: You're not going to use this 14 as a political forum here, okay? 15 MR. WITHEY: I'm asking the judge -- are you 16 willing to answer the question? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. 18 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Let me ask it again. Jill 19 straight made a representation to the press as indicated 20 in this article, fair enough? 21 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. 22 A. True. 23 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Okay. Was what -- did you 24 authorize her to make this statement? 25 A. I didn't talk to her before she made this 33 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 statement about making this specific statement. 3 Q. Do you believe it was an authorized statement 4 in the sense that she spoke for the campaign? 5 A. She works for my campaign. 6 Q. Was there anything untruthful? 7 MR. MAGUIRE : Objection. Lack of foundation. 8 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Asked and 9 answered. Go ahead. You can answer. 10 A. Can you read the question back. 11 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Was there anything untruthful 12 about this statement she made to the press as indicated 13 in this line, the yellow marked one? 14 A. No, but I'm not agreeing to everything else 15 that was in this article. 16 Q. Didn't ask you to. 17 Do you know who Doug barns is? 18 A. Doug barns is with the Seattle Master 19 Builders. 20 Q. In 2007 do you know if he was president of 21 that organization? 22 A. I don't remember his position. 23 Q. Who is Joe Schwab? 24 A. He's also with the same group. 25 Q. And John day? 34 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. With the same group. 3 Q. And prior to May 21, 2007, do you recall 4 having a phone call or contact with them with respect to 5 their position related to the election? 6 A. Prior to when? 7 Q. May 21st, 2007. 8 A. I don't know about the date. 9 Q. All right. And, well, did you have contact 10 with them in your recollection, in other words, do you 11 recall contacting one or all of them? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And what was the subject matter of that 14 contact? 15 A. The subject matter was the -- there was a rift 16 in between the two groups, BIAW and Seattle Master 17 Builders, and so the idea was trying to mend fences 18 between the two because it looked like a personality 19 clash. 20 Q. Who informed you of that rift? 21 A. Tom Mc Cabe. 22 Q. And what did Mr. Mc Cabe tell you? 23 A. That the Seattle Master Builders were not 24 supportive of their overall effort and, as I recollect 25 that was really the conversation. Asked if maybe I 35 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 could bring them all back together. 3 Q. And what -- on what issues had this rift 4 developed along? 5 A. It was -- as I understood it more of a 6 personality clash with Daimon Doyle who was a -- I think 7 he was the head of the BIAW at that point in time. And 8 with the folks that were at Seattle Master Builders, 9 because they have, you know, different approaches to 10 politics, the two different groups and don't always see 11 eye to eye. But they're both small business oriented 12 groups, and the idea that they should be one is better 13 than a scattered shotgun effect when it comes to 14 supporting pro small business candidates. And they 15 support a lot of pro small business candidates all over 16 the state, Republican and Democrat, including Judy 17 Clibborn from the 41st district who was a Democrat and 18 Tim she will done and other ones who in the legislature 19 and throughout state government. And, you know, putting 20 that together would have been more -- would be a 21 stronger effort than them being separate. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey, I'ma going to ask 23 that Mr. Lowney share with us whatever ex parte contact, 24 meaning contact he said with the judge by e-mail or 25 otherwise, I think it's only fair and appropriate. 36 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. LOWNEY: Sure, no, wait a minute, we're 3 going to try to set up a conference call. 4 MR. PATTERSON: I just to see what he just 5 sent to the judge. 6 MR. LOWNEY: I didn't send anything to the 7 judge. 8 MR. PATTERSON: Are you going to share that 9 with us? 10 MR. LOWNEY: I asked to see if we could get 11 Renee on the phone. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Can we take a look at what you 13 sent in. 14 MR. LOWNEY: No. 15 MR. PATTERSON: It's illegal to have ex parte 16 contact. Can we review what you just wrote to the 17 judge? 18 MR. LOWNEY: I did not write anything to the 19 judge. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Did you e-mail the judge's 21 chambers? 22 MR. LOWNEY: No, I've told you that. 23 MR. PATTERSON: So no contact with the judge's 24 chambers? 25 MR. LOWNEY: No. Yes. 37 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: So you have nothing here? 3 You're telling me the truth, Mr. Lowney; is that 4 correct? 5 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Let's move on, Mr. Rossi, was 6 political spending part of the rift that you've 7 described? 8 A. Overall the groups together in their -- the 9 political effort in their political financial health 10 together is stronger, so in a general sense, yes. 11 Q. So I assume you discussed this rift then with 12 Mr. Barns, Mr. Schwab and Mr. Day? 13 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 14 question insofar as you used the term assume. 15 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Is that correct? 16 A. Did I discuss it with them? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. And you were aware that both groups had 20 supported you in the past; correct? 21 A. They had. 22 Q. And you believed that even if you had 23 discussed funding of -- or strike that. 24 Even if you had discussed specifics about 25 money, again, this is prior to when you declared, that 38 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 that would have been completely legal because you were 3 not declared as a candidate yet; correct? 4 MR. MAGUIRE : Objection, vague. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 6 question insofar as you're asking him for a legal 7 conclusion and you're also assuming facts that are not 8 in evidence. 9 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer the question. 10 A. Go ahead and read the question back, please. 11 MR. PATTERSON: No, no. 12 MR. WITHEY: No, I'm going to rephrase it. 13 I'm withdrawing the question it's. 14 MR. PATTERSON: You're withdraw, okay. 15 Mr. Withey, Mr. Withey, this is supposed to be a very 16 good decorum. You don't need to stare at me in disdain. 17 This is a process, and we've already got a bad name, 18 lawyers do, and lawsuits like this and your conduct 19 during this deposition where you're staring at me in 20 disdain simply doesn't enlighten not only the citizenry 21 that depend upon lawyers to advocate for them, it 22 doesn't do anything with regard to the deck rum of our 23 profession. 24 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) First of all, I thank you for 25 allowing me to continue, and I did not stare at you. 39 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Here's the question? 3 MR. PATTERSON: I wish we had the record that 4 would indicate that. We certainly have all sorts of 5 witnesses. 6 MR. LOWNEY: We tried to have the cameras 7 here. 8 MR. PATTERSON: On short but not in compliance 9 with the Court rule. 10 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, did you tell the 11 press it would have been acceptable to discuss money 12 with these two groups, the BIAW and the master builders, 13 but because you had not become a candidate at that time? 14 A. I said that I wasn't a candidate, and I was 15 about 75 percent sure at that time I would not be a 16 candidate for any office ever again after what we had 17 gone through in 2004. And so the reality of that is we 18 were talking in a general sense for them to come 19 together to support pro business candidates. 20 (Deposition Exhibit 4 was marked for 21 identification.) 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, Exhibit 4 is a 23 Seattle Times article by Kurt Woodward of the associated 24 press October 7, 2008 at 12 a.m.. and let me direct 25 your attention to the second page of that, the yellow 40 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 marked portion. I'll read it into the record, if I make 3 a mistake please correct me. 4 Rossi has said he was merely trying to patch a 5 rift between the two groups, both of which had supported 6 him in the past. Although their political spending was 7 part of the schism, Rossi says he didn't discuss any 8 specifics about money. 9 Is that an accurate statement? 10 A. I didn't ask them to split money, a specific 11 amount of money or any money in certain places. 12 Q. Okay. 13 A. That's true. 14 Q. And the rest of the statement is true about 15 patching up the rift; correct? 16 A. That was the main issue. 17 Q. Now the next sentence, even if he had, Rossi 18 has argued that that would have been acceptable since he 19 hadn't become a candidate for governor yet. 20 Did you also make that statement? 21 MR. PATTERSON: Number one, there's a line in 22 between. It's not next sentence, it says -- there's a 23 whole new section that says time of candidacy. 24 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Is the next sentence 25 accurate? 41 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Right. It says time of candidacy was 3 important -- yeah, I wasn't a candidate. I believe that 4 I was about like I said 75 percent sure I would never 5 run for office again. And I was just trying to patch up 6 a relationship that obviously -- told be like Christine 7 Gregoire having parts of SCIU fighting with each other 8 and both groups supported her and she was trying to 9 patch up the rift with SCIU. 10 Q. Move to strike as nonresponsive? 11 MR. PATTERSON: It was responsive. 12 MR. WITHEY: You don't have to argue whether 13 it was. I have a right to move to strike as energy. 14 Mr. Patterson may disagree with me. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey, don't try to cut 16 me off because I'm here and I have rights, and you know, 17 just like the judge had indicated, that the due process 18 rights go to the very heart of not only Mr. Rossi's 19 citizenry but every citizen in this state and the point 20 is I've got a right to make my statements and I believe 21 it was responsive. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) The question I had was 23 specific to this. Rossi has argued that would have been 24 acceptable, that means discussing specifics about money 25 with those groups. 42 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Do you understand that as part of the 3 statement? 4 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 5 question in that it's your interpretation as to what the 6 that refers to. 7 MR. MAGUIRE : I'll object it's vague. 8 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm asking Mr. Rossi if you 9 agree that the that in that sentence refers to 10 discussing specifics about money. 11 A. Yeah, but I didn't do that. 12 Q. Right. Because you weren't declared a 13 candidate? 14 A. I wasn't a candidate. I wasn't a declared or 15 undeclared candidate, and that's what the six-month long 16 PDC investigation found out, under oath, and that's 17 exactly where we were. I was a private citizen at that 18 point in. 19 Q. How many individuals within the BIAW or master 20 builders like Mr. Barns or Mr. Schwab or Mr. Day did you 21 contact with respect to their political activities prior 22 to when you declared your candidacy? 23 MR. MAGUIRE : Objection lack of foundation. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Compound. But I need it read 25 back. 43 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 3 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 4 question. Compound, but go ahead and you understand it. 5 A. I don't recall specifically contacting anybody 6 else but those folks. 7 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, you talked to Daimon 8 Doyle, did you not? 9 A. Right. I already mentioned him earlier. 10 Q. Okay. Other than -- is your testimony other 11 than Daimon Doyle, Mrs. Barn, swab and day, you had no 12 contact with anybody at either BIAW or master builders 13 association with respect to this topic; correct? 14 A. Which topic? 15 MR. MAGUIRE : Objection. Mischaracterizes 16 his testimony. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 18 question. What topic are we talking about? 14 we're 19 talking about the topic that is referred to in the news 20 articles, which is the schism and as the article says, 21 political spending as part of that schism. 22 A. I didn't talk to -- I didn't call anybody else 23 in that group that I remember that I recall. 24 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you call anyone with 25 master builders association of Pierce County about 44 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 political spending? 3 A. I don't remember. 4 Q. Did you use cell phone or house phone or 5 office phone or all of the above to call those 6 individuals? 7 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 8 question. 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you pay for any of the 11 calls yourself in 2007 before you declared? 12 MR. MAGUIRE : Objection vague. 13 A. You mean like a pay phone or something? 14 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) For instance a cell phone 15 bill. Did you have a cell phone? 16 A. Yes aid a phone. 17 Q. What was your phone number? 18 MR. PATTERSON: I'm going to object to the 19 form of the question. I'm going to advise him not -- I 20 don't want that phone number to be out there for 21 consumption. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you pay your cell phone 23 bill by yourself personally or did some campaign or 24 other agency pay it? 25 A. I wasn't a candidate office so it certainly 45 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 wasn't a campaign that paid for it, I paid for my own 3 cell phone. 4 Q. Thank you. And you're unwilling to give us 5 even confidentially if we keep this confidential, you're 6 willing to give us your phone number? 7 MR. PATTERSON: I'm not going to allow him. 8 He's got some privacy rights here and there's all sorts 9 of people out there that not only bring illegal lawsuits 10 but make inappropriate phone calls. 11 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware, have you been 12 informed that we've subpoenaed the minutes and notes and 13 note takers of the building association to produce those 14 minutes tomorrow and throughout the end of the week and 15 next week? 16 A. I don't know about that. 17 Q. And your testimony would be that there would 18 be no reference to any contacts you would make other 19 than BIAW and master builders of King County in any of 20 those minutes or notes related to your contacting them 21 for the purpose of political funding? 22 A. Not that I'm aware of. How would I know what 23 they put in their notes? 24 Q. Okay. 25 MR. MAGUIRE : Mr. Withey, we've not been 46 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 served with any Subpoenas directly to any associations 3 this week. 4 MR. WITHEY: I'll deal with that at the break. 5 MR. PATTERSON: I'll move to strike the 6 question then as not only not being truthful and 7 accurate but in some way trying to get this witness to 8 answer in a way that you wanted him to answer when in 9 fact you knew that no Subpoena has been issued. 10 MR. WITHEY: The issue has been -- we've 11 served the Subpoenas on everybody. They brought motions 12 to quash and for protective order and we were in court 13 when you were in court. So of course we've served 14 Subpoenas on them. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Well, I certainly have not 16 received any copies of those. 17 MR. WITHEY: Well, you're not a party to this 18 case. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Thank you very much. 20 MR. MAGUIRE : We've not received any 21 Subpoenas this week. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) What was the political 23 spending that was part of the schism that -- or the 24 rift, excuse me, that you've referred to? 25 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 47 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question. Do you want to restate that? 3 MR. WITHEY: No. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Well, you've got two questions 5 there. 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I said what was the political 7 spending aspect of the rift that you described? 8 A. The political spending would be their 9 participation, or however they participate. I'm not 10 sure how their mechanism works. But them being together 11 as one group instead of going off in separate 12 directions. 13 Q. Were your efforts successful? 14 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 15 question. What efforts? 16 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) To mend the rift. 17 A. To mend the rift? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. It was a personality conflict that I don't 20 think ever got resolved. 21 Q. Was it in your interest to see if you could 22 mend the rift between those organizations? 23 A. No, it wasn't my interest, it was in the 24 interest of State of Washington to promote small 25 business candidates and that is what the BIAW and the 48 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Seattle Master Builders do, and it was not specifically 3 for any candidate, it was specifically to support pro 4 business candidates like Judy Clibborn, Democrat from 5 Mercer Island who was supported heavily by BIAW and 6 other Democrats and Republicans across the state who are 7 small business oriented people. 8 Q. Including yourself? 9 A. What's that? 10 Q. Including yourself? 11 A. I wasn't a candidate. 12 Q. Did you understand that the BIAW or some of 13 the associations had the expectations of receiving 14 donations for electoral activities for 2008? 15 MR. MAGUIRE : Calls for speculation. 16 MR. PATTERSON: I don't quite understand. 17 Could you repeat that? 18 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 19 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Calls for 20 speculation. 21 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer. 22 MR. PATTERSON: If you know. 23 A. I'm not going to speculate what they were 24 going to do and not do, I'm not involved in their 25 meetings. I'm not part of their organization. 49 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, were you aware that 3 BIAW and other builder associations had received 4 donations and made expenditures for your race for 5 governor in 2004? 6 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 7 question. And also I'm going to advise him not to 8 answer. We're not dealing with 2004 here, you're 9 getting way far afield here, Mr. Withey. We're not 10 dealing with 2004, we're dealing with 2007, 2008, this 11 campaign. 12 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you have the expectancy 13 that BIAW and master builders association would raise 14 money for your candidacy if you decided to declare for 15 governor? 16 A. I didn't know if they would or wouldn't. That 17 was not discussed for me, because I wasn't a candidate. 18 And if you look at most of the documents in your lawsuit 19 you see the word if many times because I told people it 20 had to make sense for my family, is there a reason for 21 me to run for office again. And like I said, at this 22 point in time I was 75 percent sure I'd never run for 23 office again after what we had gone through before, and 24 being here today is more evidence of it. 25 MR. WITHEY: Move to strike as nonresponsive. 50 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: It's clearly responsive to the 3 question that was asked. 4 MR. WITHEY: Do you understand how political 5 committee is defined under the campaign finance -- 6 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form. Hang 7 on. Object to the form of the question. Political 8 committee issue is not an issue that is in front of this 9 witness here, and if you want to get the judge on the 10 line we can do that. Political committee issue is an 11 issue that is not relevant to Mr. Rossi. 12 MR. WITHEY: Are you instructing him not to 13 answer? 14 MR. PATTERSON: That particular question, yeah 15 because it's beyond the scope. 16 Q. You spoke at a BIAW meeting at Semiahmoo in 17 June 29, 2007 before you declared as a candidate; 18 correct? 19 A. True. 20 Q. Because you had not declared, you believe your 21 attendance at that meeting and the speech you gave was 22 totally legal, fair enough? 23 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 24 question. Insofar as you're asking for a legal 25 conclusion. Go ahead. 51 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. It was absolutely legal. I was there giving a 3 speech about how to improve the business climate for 4 small and medium sized businesses. On behalf of the 5 non-profit, non-partisan foundation called the forward 6 Washington foundation that I founded. And these people 7 are small business oriented folks and so they asked me 8 to come up and give a talk. 9 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, Mr. Lowney is going to 10 ask you a few more questions about that meeting in May 11 21, 2007, just for your information. I'm going to move 12 on to another topic? 13 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on a second. We're not 14 going to have duplicitive questions here, so if you're 15 going to start down a path, I'm not going to allow 16 Mr. Lowney to go down that same path and plow old 17 ground. 18 MR. WITHEY: He's going to ask specific 19 questions, I asked a general one. 20 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware of the fact 21 that the Public Disclosure Commission and Attorney 22 General Rob McKenna have asserted in court that both of 23 the BIAW member services corporation and the master 24 builders association of king and Snohomish County 25 committed multiple violations of the campaign finance 52 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 laws by failing to register as a political committee in 3 2007? 4 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. I'm going to 5 advise you not to answer that question because it has 6 nothing to do with the issues for which this court has 7 allowed the question. The political issue is not. I 8 invite the judge to tell you otherwise. And I think 9 this is an appropriate time to take a break. 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'd like to take a break 11 right now. 12 MR. WITHEY: We're going to get the judge on 13 the line. For the record, I've been in practice for 36 14 years. This has been the most obstructive deposition 15 I've ever participated in, it's made a mockery of the 16 four hours that we've arranged for. We are going to 17 move the Court to impose sanctions upon Mr. Patterson, 18 we'll move the Court to allow us additional time to 19 depose Mr. Rossi in light of this obstruction. We will 20 make -- let me finish. We will make a transcript of 21 this proceeding available to the judge immediately, and 22 we will then ask her to give us a call back when she's 23 had the chance to review it so that she might determine 24 what sanctions if any should be imposed and whether this 25 deposition should be continued further. 53 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 And also I'd ask her to rule on the objections 3 that Mr. Patterson has interposed as to political 4 committee and the other things so that we can get a 5 ruling on that. Let's take our break. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey, I'm going to state 7 that I've been in practice just about as long as you 8 have and I'm going to say this. I probably participated 9 in more depositions than you ever thought of 10 participating in and I've certainly tried more cases 11 than you ever have, okay? And I'm going to tell you 12 that. That I am not here to have the due process and 13 constitutional rights of my client overrun and I'm not 14 here to see lawyers that are being paid by Christine 15 Gregoire use this political campaign and to ask 16 questions that are geared towards the press. I'm not 17 here to have Mr. Lowney hold a press conference and to 18 otherwise try to influence this election. My objections 19 will stand for the record. I will have anybody take a 20 look at those. I'm happy to have the judge take a look 21 at those objections. 22 MR. WITHEY: Let's take a break and get the 23 judge on the line. 24 MR. PATTERSON: They're clearly appropriate 25 and he has rights despite the fact that you didn't 54 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 observe those rights and the judge clearly indicated 3 that you violated his due process rights when you served 4 him with the Subpoena the first time around. 5 MR. LOWNEY: And I want to put on the record 6 that you are defaming me by suggesting and stating that 7 I'm being paid by Christine Gregoire when in fact that 8 is false and you have no basis for it. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Do you know what? Either 10 you're getting paid directly or indirectly, in my 11 opinion, and the point is -- 12 MR. LOWNEY: In the State of Washington. 13 MR. PATTERSON: The point is, Mr. Lowney, you 14 want to have your deposition taken, I'm more than happy 15 to take it. 16 MR. WITHEY: Are you going to withdraw that 17 statement we're being paid by Chris Gregoire? Are you 18 going it withdraw it? 19 MR. PATTERSON: In my opinion -- 20 MR. LOWNEY: Are you going to withdraw it? 21 MR. WITHEY: Let's go get the judge. 22 MR. PATTERSON: It is my opinion. 23 MR. WITHEY: We're going to get the judge on 24 the line right now. 25 MR. PATTERSON: I want to be present. I've 55 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 got an absolute right. That's another example by the 3 way of saying that I don't have any rights here that 4 you're going to have a conference with the judge without 5 me participating. 6 MR. WITHEY: I wasn't, I'm inviting you to be 7 present. 8 MR. PATTERSON: You're inviting me? I have an 9 absolute right to be there, just as you've run over the 10 top of Mr. Rossi's civil rights, you're running over the 11 top of my civil rights. 12 MR. WITHEY: Take a break. 13 (Recess taken.) 14 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Back on the record. In the 15 break we've made a partial transcript of the deposition 16 to -- as of this time, and we're having my staff come 17 and get that on a USB port and she will send that to the 18 parties, to counsel for Mr. Rossi and to the Court with 19 the request that we have a conference call, if possible, 20 with the Court to go over the objections as I stated 21 before, before the break. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Well, when you say a partial 23 transcript, I'm hope it's the complete transcript of 24 this morning. 25 MR. WITHEY: Yes. I meant it wasn't the 56 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 entire deposition because we haven't finished it yet. 3 MR. LOWNEY: And we've also put on the record 4 the fact that if we can't proceed in an orderly fashion, 5 an expedited fashion here, that we will not be able to 6 be completed at the end of the four hours, and the four 7 hour agreement was specifically written with the 8 understanding that there would be standard level of 9 objections, and while the parties will not be able to 10 agree here today, we don't expect it but we will be 11 asking for more time if we are not allowed to proceed 12 without objections, frivolous objections. And that will 13 be a decision to be made by the Court. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Just my response. You are 15 absolutely -- I know you're not a trial lawyer, 16 Mr. Lowney. These are not frivolous objections. 17 Contrary to your position in this case that you don't 18 have to give any due process rights to my client, 19 Mr. Rossi, you're absolutely wrong. The Court has 20 already indicated this goes to the heart of our legal 21 system, it goes to the heart of our civil rights, and 22 the fact that you want to run over Mr. Rossi and without 23 allowing me appropriate objections, that is not 24 appropriate, okay? Your lawsuit is frivolous on the 25 other hand. Hang on, hang on, I'm going to respond. 57 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Your lawsuit is frivolous, and an example of that is the 3 fact that you are here proceeding and asking questions 4 that are not germane to the issues that you had argued 5 to the Court that you need to take his deposition 6 preelection, okay? 7 And lastly here, and probably more 8 importantly, is that you are now playing into the very 9 political purpose of bringing this lawsuit, is that you 10 want to stretch this story out, you want to stretch 11 these depositions out for the purpose of not allowing 12 my -- Mr. Rossi's candidacy to move forward in an 13 unfettered fashion, and you've not allowed him to engage 14 in political appointments that he had already on staff 15 here. And I know of no stipulation that indicates that 16 these are normal -- that there was any indication that 17 you were going to exceed four hours. 18 Q. I'd like the next exhibit marked, please. 19 (Deposition Exhibit 5 was marked for 20 identification.) 21 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Mr. Rossi, Exhibit 5 the 22 executive summary and staff analysis of the citizen 23 action letter filed by my clients, former Justices of 24 the Supreme Court, and I'd like to direct your attention 25 to Page 3, if I could, the yellow highlight. 58 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 I'll read it to you, and correct me if I'm 3 wrong. BIAW-MSC officers decided to approach the 15 4 local associations to ask them to contribute the 5 difference between the estimated and actual retro 6 refunds for use by change PAC in the 2008 election. 7 Do you see that? 8 A. I see it. 9 Q. And then the next sentence says, following the 10 solicitations, 11 of the 15 associations authorized 11 BIAW, MSC to retain a portion of their 2007 retro 12 program refund for use in the 2008 election. 13 Do you see that? 14 A. I see that written here. 15 Q. Do you have any understanding or knowledge as 16 to those transactions? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 18 question. These are allegations. There's no basis in 19 fact or in law for these statements. But go ahead. 20 A. I'm not sure what this is about. The BIAW 21 decided that the 15 local associations. That's the 22 groups under BIAW or with BIAW? 23 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Yes. 24 A. Is that what it is? 25 Q. Yes. I'm just asking if you're aware of -- 59 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. No, I'm not. 3 Q. Thank you. The last is the conclusion of the 4 PDC -- 5 MR. PATTERSON: Which page is this? 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Last page. Does support the 7 allegation, the BIAW MSC committed multiple violations 8 of RCW 42.17 by failing to register as a political 9 committee, et cetera. Were you aware of that conclusion 10 of the PDC? 11 MR. MAGUIRE: Object. This is outside the 12 scope. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, objection, completely 14 outside the scope, Mr. Withey. Maybe you can educate me 15 as to why this is within the scope, and once again we're 16 reading from your document. 17 MR. WITHEY: It's a PDC document. 18 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah but it's your 19 allegations. 20 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Go ahead, you can answer the 21 question. I'm asking if you're aware of the finding by 22 the PDC that BIAW-MSC failed to register as a political 23 committee. 24 A. I read that in the newspaper. 25 Q. Did you -- okay. You have never read this 60 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 document then? 3 A. I must have missed that part. 4 Q. Okay. 5 A. I saw the front of this document before. 6 Q. And as far as you understood, you understood 7 that if you had contact with and -- with the BIAW prior 8 to when you became a candidate for governor, that 9 resulted in any contributions, that it was legal because 10 you had not declared; correct? 11 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 12 question. 13 MR. WITHEY: I'll withdraw the question. 14 MR. PATTERSON: This has been asked. 15 MR. WITHEY: I'll withdraw the question. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Thank you. 17 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware that Rob 18 McKenna brought a lawsuit against the BIAW member 19 services corporation? 20 MR. PATTERSON: What does this have to do with 21 any of the issues that the judge allowed you to take the 22 deposition on? My whole point is you're saying you 23 can't get this done in four hours and you're asking 24 questions that aren't relevant to the very narrow scope 25 of what the judge allowed you to ask. 61 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. WITHEY: First of all if I informed you of 3 where I was going with this that would be a work product 4 doctrine. Before he was candidate for governor he had 5 some contacts and he described those contacts. I'm 6 entitled to ask him whether he was aware that during 7 that same time, master -- BIAW MSC was operating as a 8 political committee, because if it was, then that 9 supports our allegations. 10 MR. PATTERSON: No, it doesn't support your 11 allegations. You can make whatever statement you want. 12 Let's go on and ask pertinent scope questions. 13 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you aware that the 14 Attorney General Rob McKenna brought a lawsuit against 15 BIAW MSC? 16 MR. MAGUIRE: Lack of foundation and outside 17 the scope. 18 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. 19 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. 21 A. When was this done? 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) It was filed on September 19, 23 2008. 24 A. I read about that in the newspaper. 25 Q. Did you read the allegation? And I'll read it 62 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 to you. Do you want me to give you a copy. 3 (Deposition Exhibit 6 was marked for 4 identification.) 5 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Handing you what has been 6 marked as Exhibit 6 let me read you from section 3.5, 7 paragraph 3.5? 8 MR. PATTERSON: Identify the document for the 9 record. 10 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Complaint by the State of 11 Washington against BIAW member services corporation. 12 3.5, as a result of the anticipated overage amount over 13 the original estimate, BIAW MSC officers personally 14 approached each of the BIAW's 15 local builders 15 association and requested they contribute some or all of 16 their excess unanticipated retro funds to assist with 17 2008 political campaigns. These personal visits to the 18 local builders association occurred between March 7 and 19 July 10, 2007. 20 First of all, are you aware of that 21 allegation? 22 A. I really don't have any knowledge of how BIAW 23 organizes or gets their money. 24 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So it's your testimony 25 that -- 63 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. That I know. 3 Q. Sorry. It's your testimony that you knew of 4 no such approach as indicated in this allegation; 5 correct? 6 A. Approach. What do you mean approach? 7 Q. Well, it states, the BIAW officers personally 8 approached each of the BIAW's 15 local builders 9 association. I'm asking whether you then have no 10 knowledge of such approach. 11 MR. MAGUIRE: Object. That mischaracterizes 12 what the document says. BIAW MSC officers. 13 MR. WITHEY: Yes. 14 MR. MAGUIRE : I thought you just said BIAW 15 officers. 16 MR. WITHEY: Sorry. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Way beyond the 18 scope. 19 MR. WITHEY: You can answer it. 20 A. I'm not really sure who they approached or who 21 they didn't approach. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, do you have any basis 23 to contradict the statement made by Mr. McKenna in that? 24 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 25 question. Insofar as you're asking him for an opinion 64 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 based upon an allegation that he doesn't have any 3 factual knowledge of. 4 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer. 5 A. I'm not aware of who they approached or didn't 6 approach. 7 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So you have no basis of 8 agreeing with or disagreeing with that statement; 9 correct? 10 A. That would be correct. I mean, I don't know 11 who they approached or didn't approach? 12 Q. After Mr. -- Attorney General McKenna brought 13 this complaint, have you ever called upon the BIAW MSC 14 to not use those funds, that Attorney General of the 15 state believed were improperly and illegally collected? 16 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Outside the scope. 17 Lack of foundation. 18 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. Way beyond 19 the scope. Go ahead. 20 A. I haven't picked up the phone and talked to 21 BIAW at all about this. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Were you aware that they 23 endorsed you for governor on November 9, 2008 -- 2007, 24 excuse me? 25 A. November when? 65 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. 9, 2007. 3 A. Yes, they did. They being? 4 Q. The BIAW. 5 A. BIAW, yeah. 6 Q. To your knowledge, in 2007 did the BIAW member 7 services corporation or the master builders association 8 expect to receive contributions to further your 9 electoral dollars, including your governor's race? 10 A. At what time? 11 Q. 2007 prior to when you declared. 12 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 13 question. You're asking him to speculate about what 14 their thought process was or who they contacted. Can 15 you read that back again. 16 MR. WITHEY: I'll rephrase it. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 18 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Prior to when you declared in 19 2007, were you aware whether the BIAW member services 20 corporation or the master builders association had 21 expected to receive contributions to them for the 22 governor's race? 23 A. I didn't know what contributions they were 24 going to have or not, and I wasn't a candidate for 25 governor and I didn't -- you know, I was not a candidate 66 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 for governor until October 11 of 2007. 3 Q. Are you aware of the concept of improper 4 coordination as it applies to the campaign finance laws? 5 A. In what way? 6 Q. Well, in the way that -- you've read -- strike 7 that. 8 Do you understand what independent expenditure 9 is? 10 A. It means it's independent. 11 Q. Independent of what? 12 A. Of a candidate. 13 Q. Are there restrictions on such expenditures 14 that you're aware of in the laws? 15 A. Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't believe 16 you can tell them to run ads for you or not run ads for 17 you. I think that's part of it. 18 Q. And if they did that, that would constitute 19 improper coordination of a campaign with a -- 20 A. If you told them to run a certain ad or. 21 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Calls for a legal 22 conclusion. 23 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, objection, does call for 24 a legal conclusion. 25 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm just asking for your 67 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 understanding. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. 4 A. I mean, you know, my understanding is that you 5 can't tell independent folks, independent groups what 6 they can say or not say, which is why in a campaign, 7 having independent groups out there can be sometimes a 8 detriment to the candidate because you just don't know 9 what they're going to say or what they're going to do. 10 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) As a candidate for governor, 11 do you believe it's permissible for you to have contact 12 with an individual organization for the purposes of 13 asking them whether they would be willing to support 14 your campaign? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 16 question. 17 A. There was no campaign to ask to support. 18 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm saying now? 19 A. Oh, now? 20 Q. Yes. 21 A. Ask a group to support my campaign, plenty of 22 groups to support a campaign. 23 Q. So that would not be improper coordination. 24 Fair enough? 25 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 68 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question. What wouldn't be improper coordination. 3 MR. WITHEY: What he just said. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Come on. Be specific, be 5 specific. 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Have you read any PDC staff 7 memos regarding what constitutes improper coordination? 8 A. I can't recall reading those. 9 Q. What's your understanding of when a person who 10 is considering running for office becomes a candidate 11 for office under the campaign finance laws? 12 A. When they solicit or accept money, when they 13 publicly declare that they are a candidate. You have 14 14 days from that time period to actually trial with the 15 PDC. We decided -- I decided on October 11th that I 16 would be a candidate. My wife and I made that decision 17 that morning. And 14 days later we filed all the 18 paperwork and made the public announcement on the 25th 19 of October. 20 Q. When did you first become aware the BIAW was 21 raising money for your campaign? 22 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Mischaracterizes 23 facts. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 25 question insofar as it calls for speculation and factual 69 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 basis for which there's no foundation, at least from 3 this witness's standpoint. Go ahead. 4 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. 5 A. You know, I don't know that they are going to 6 raise money until you see something that they actually 7 produce from it, so there's no knowledge of raising 8 money because I had no campaign. And until we saw 9 evidence of that on the air waves and the like. 10 Q. Do you recall when that first was? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. Do you understand that the person can become a 13 candidate where the existence of a political committee 14 promoting the election of that individual for public 15 office occurs with the knowledge and consent of an 16 individual? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 18 question. Could I have that read back? It doesn't make 19 sense to me. 20 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 21 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 22 question. Calls for a legal conclusion. Also is 23 compound. 24 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) that's your understanding? 25 Is that your understanding? 70 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. MAGUIRE : It mischaracterizes the law. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Do you understand the 4 question? 5 A. No, I don't. 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) The question I'm asking you 7 is whether there's other ways than what you suggested 8 you could become a candidate, all right, and so I'm 9 going to ask you whether you understand that you can 10 become a candidate as follows: Where there's the 11 existence of a political committee promoting the 12 election of you in this case for public office -- 13 A. Could we stop and ask for a clarification? 14 What does that mean political existence. What does that 15 mean? 16 Q. That means you're aware of a fact that 17 political committee exists that's promoting your 18 candidacy and you give consent to that. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Do you understand that that would then make 21 you a candidate even if you had not declared? 22 A. If that were true, but that's not true in this 23 case because I wasn't a candidate and there was no 24 political committee set aside from me. You can believe 25 I'm going to be a great senator and inform a group to 71 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 try to support me in 2010. That doesn't make me a 3 candidate. 4 Q. I understand, I think I've answered it. 5 A. Am I getting that clear, what I'm saying? 6 Using you as an example. You can do that but it still 7 doesn't make me a candidate. 8 Q. I'm asking you this. If you're aware and give 9 consent to a political committee promoting your 10 election, that makes you a candidate, correct? 11 A. And I gave no such consent. 12 Q. I'm asking whether you understood that that 13 would make you a candidate. 14 MR. MAGUIRE: Object to relevancy and legal 15 conclusion. 16 MR. PATTERSON: And it also calls for a legal 17 conclusion. 18 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So your answer is you don't 19 know? 20 MR. PATTERSON: No, no, don't put words in his 21 mouth. He's answered the question. 22 MR. WITHEY: He said I'm not a lawyer. 23 MR. PATTERSON: No, the question -- the answer 24 is on the record. Please do not Friday to puts words in 25 Mr. Rossi's most: 72 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you recall answering that 3 I'm not a lawyer, Mr. Rossi? 4 A. Well, I'm not a lawyer. 5 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Are you familiar with -- 6 A. Sitting here in a room full of lawyers. 7 (Deposition Exhibit 7 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Handing you what has been 10 marked as Exhibit 7, this is a copy of the Washington 11 Administrative Code 390-05-200. And I'm going to read 12 it to you, the first two portions of it. The following 13 circumstance shall give rise to a presumption that an 14 individual as a candidate, as that term is definede in 15 RCW 42.17.020 paren 8, one, the existence of a political 16 committee promoting the election of such individual for 17 public office with the knowledge and consent of that 18 individual. Did I read that correctly? 19 A. Yes, you did. 20 Q. All right. 21 A. So knowledge and consent is connected; right? 22 Q. Yes. So I'm asking you whether you understood 23 that you could become a candidate in this manner even if 24 you had not declared your candidacy. 25 A. If I knew they had a specific fund for me and 73 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 I said go do it? That's my consent; right? 3 Q. My question is this. Do you understand that 4 you could become a candidate in the manner set forth in 5 this WAC even if you had not declared your candidacy for 6 governor in October of 2007? 7 MR. MAGUIRE : Object on relevance. His 8 understanding is not relevant. Ask about the facts, 9 whether there was knowledge or consent rather than his 10 understanding of the law. 11 MR. PATTERSON: And objection, it calls for a 12 legal conclusion. 13 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. 14 A. I did not give my consent to anybody just to 15 start anything, any political activities on my behalf 16 because I was not a candidate. 17 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) But you understood, however, 18 that if you had given consent to a political 19 committee -- 20 A. Which I didn't. 21 Q. Let me finish the question, please. You 22 understood that had you known about and given consent to 23 a political committee to promote you for governor, you 24 would become a candidate even before you'd declared your 25 candidacy? 74 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 3 question. You're asking him for a hypothetical because 4 that never happened? 5 MR. MAGUIRE : Same objections. 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. 7 MR. PATTERSON: No, it's an opinion question. 8 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. 9 A. I wasn't a candidate for governor. 10 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) But you now understand that 11 if the existence of a political committee -- 12 MR. PATTERSON: He's answered the question, 13 Mr. Withey. 14 MR. WITHEY: I'm asking a different one. 15 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You understand that the 16 existence of a political committee, all right -- 17 A. Political committee that's outside my control. 18 Q. You understand the existence of a political 19 committee promoting your election if done with your 20 knowledge and consent would make you a candidate even if 21 you had not declared? 22 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. It's been asked 23 and answered several different times. You can answer 24 the same way you did before. 25 MR. MAGUIRE : Same objections. 75 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I wasn't a candidate. 3 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Well, first of all I'm going 4 to move to strike as nonresponsive, secondly, the 5 directive that you can move -- you can answer the way 6 you did before is coaching the witness. 7 MR. PATTERSON: That's not coaching the 8 witness. 9 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Did you understand that the 10 Attorney General -- 11 MR. PATTERSON: You know very well that you're 12 not allowed to ask the same question over and over and 13 over again, Mr. Withey. And you're asking him a 14 question based upon -- that's not based on either fact 15 or law because he's already indicated that he didn't 16 give his knowledge or consent. 17 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You understand that the 18 extent to which the Attorney General determined that 19 BIAW MSC was a political committee in 2007 and that they 20 then with your knowledge and consent supported your 21 candidacy, that that would be illegal; correct? 22 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 23 question and it asks for a legal conclusion. Number two 24 is that's at the fourth time you've answered it and if 25 you can answer it again the same way you did before, go 76 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 ahead. 3 MR. MAGUIRE: I object. It mischaracterizes 4 the facts. 5 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer it. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Totally opposite to the facts. 7 MR. WITHEY: Any other comments? Anybody 8 else? 9 MR. Attorney 5 : Misstates the law too. 10 MR. WITHEY: Thank you. 11 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer the question? 12 A. I wasn't a candidate for governor. 13 Q. When did you first find out that the BIAW had 14 moved $2 million of their budget into your governor's 15 campaign? 16 A. Can you say that again? When did what? 17 Q. When did you first find out that the BIAW in a 18 meeting in Spokane moved $2 million of their budget into 19 your campaign? 20 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form. 21 A. First off, that's incorrect. There was no 22 money moved into my campaign. He said into my campaign. 23 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I did. 24 A. That's wrong. 25 Q. In November after you declared? 77 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. They cannot give 2 million into my campaign. 3 Q. So the extent to which they gave that 4 statement that would be wrong; correct? 5 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 6 question. 7 A. You're making that statement would be wrong. 8 Q. If the BIAW made that statement they would 9 also be wrong; correct? 10 A. Right, because they can't move money into my 11 campaign, that size of money. 12 Q. And in light of the definition of candidate 13 that I just -- that you just were shown, did you take 14 any efforts to determine whether the BIAW MSC or the 15 master builders association were political committees 16 under the campaign finance law? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 18 question insofar as it's compound. The first part of 19 your question has nothing to do with the second part. 20 Do you want to rephrase it? 21 MR. WITHEY: No. 22 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) Do you understand the 23 question? 24 A. Not really. 25 Q. All right then I'll rephrase it. 78 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Redo it. 3 Q. What efforts did you undertake to determine 4 whether the BIAW master services corporation or the 5 master builders association of King County were 6 political committees under the campaign finance laws? 7 A. At what time? When? 8 Q. In 2007 before you declared. 9 A. Before I was a candidate for governor? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. No. 12 Q. You did not? 13 A. No, I wasn't a candidate for governor. 14 Q. Do you think it was your responsibility as a 15 potential, even if it's only 25 percent -- 16 A. As a private citizen? 17 Q. No. Do you think it's your responsibility as 18 a potential candidate to determine whether an 19 organization that you've admitted calling members of was 20 or was not a political committee? 21 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 22 question. Calls for speculation and also calls for a 23 legal conclusion. 24 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer. 25 A. Can repeat back the question please. 79 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 3 A. I was 75 percent sure I would never run for 4 office again so I wasn't even considering myself a 5 potential candidate at that point in time, so no. 6 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) So in other words, it did not 7 matter whether they were political committees or not as 8 long as you had not declared as a candidate? 9 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. 10 A. That's not what I said. 11 MR. PATTERSON: That mischaracterizes and you 12 have a habit of doing that, Mr. Withey, please don't do 13 that: Do not mischaracterize his statements. 14 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'm asking you a different 15 question. Does it matter to you whether the BIAW MSC or 16 the master builders association were political 17 committees in 2007 before you declared your candidacy? 18 A. It's nothing I had knowledge of. I mean, was 19 a private citizen. 20 MR. WITHEY: I'm going to have Mr. Lowney ask 21 you a few questions, Mr. Rossi. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Are you done with your 23 questioning? 24 MR. WITHEY: Yes. 25 80 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 EXAMINATION 3 4 BY MR. LOWNEY: 5 Q. Just refresh my recollection, Mr. Patterson. 6 Did you retract your statement about me being paid by 7 Chris Gregoire? 8 MR. PATTERSON: I said it was my opinion that 9 either directly or indirectly I believe that you people, 10 I'm talking about you and Mr. Withey, are getting funds 11 from either her campaign or indirectly through that 12 campaign but it's clear what your agenda is, Mr. Lowney. 13 MR. LOWNEY: All right, so did -- 14 MR. PATTERSON: No, you asked me the question, 15 I'm going to answer it. 16 MR. WITHEY: You either retract it or you 17 don't. 18 MR. PATTERSON: I've already indicated what my 19 opinion here is, okay? I don't know whether Chris 20 Gregoire, I'm sure she didn't do it directly. It's 21 clear to me Mr. Lowney you have a political agenda here, 22 it's clear from the very beginning you want Ms. Gregoire 23 elected, you do not want Mr. Rossi elected and you will 24 do anything you can in order to prevent that from 25 happening and you will even file frivolous lawsuits in 81 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 order to make that happen. 3 MR. LOWNEY: So the answer was yes or no? 4 MR. PATTERSON: And you're the one that was, 5 you know, is always in contact with the press trying to 6 tell them what your position is. And I believe that you 7 ought to be very well aware of the guidelines. 8 MR. LOWNEY: It's opinion. I can take care of 9 it myself. 10 MR. PATTERSON: And I'm not being deposed. 11 MR. LOWNEY: We're going to set this up so 12 that we're going to move forward through these questions 13 in an orderly fashion and we're not -- 14 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, you know what, 15 Mr. Lowney, I'm well aware of the court rules in the 16 State of Washington. I don't think you're a trial 17 lawyer, you're a political activist, and so you can ask 18 your questions and I will object to them on a legal 19 basis and I'm sure I will because they're all 20 politically motivated. 21 Q. (BY LOWNEY) Mr. Rossi, thank you again for 22 being here today? 23 A. My pleasure. 24 Q. Are you familiar with the organization BIAW 25 member services corporation? 82 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. What's member services corporation? 3 Q. That was yes or no question. Are you familiar 4 with that organization? 5 MR. PATTERSON: No, he can ask you a question, 6 a clarification question? 7 A. I know Seattle Master Builders, is that the 8 same thing? 9 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) My question is, are you 10 familiar with BIAW member service corporation, yes or 11 no? 12 MR. PATTERSON: He's asked you a -- you're not 13 willing to clarify that, Mr. Lowney? 14 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) No. The question is are you 15 familiar with that organization? 16 A. I'm familiar with BIAW. 17 Q. Okay. My question is -- 18 A. Master services corporation. 19 Q. Then the answer would be no? 20 MR. PATTERSON: No, wait a minute, you're not 21 going to put words in his mouth if he doesn't know what 22 the organization is. 23 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to ask you the 24 question again. Are you familiar with BIAW member 25 services corporation? Yes or no? 83 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: No, you can't restrict him to 3 yes or no. He's already asked you a clarifying 4 question. Go ahead. Can you answer that question? 5 A. Well, I'm not sure about -- I know what BIAW 6 is. Building Industry Association of Washington. I 7 don't know what the other part is. If that's the 8 Seattle Master Builders then that's a different group, I 9 don't know. 10 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let me say, to clarify, if 11 this helps you, it is a separate corporation, BIAW 12 member services corporation. Are you familiar with that 13 corporation? 14 A. I've had no contact with anybody from the 15 corporation with that -- that I know of. Maybe -- I 16 don't know. 17 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with a group called 18 people for efficient government? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you recall -- do you recall previously 21 having any independent expenditures for any of your 22 campaigns being investigated for improper coordination? 23 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 24 question. Which campaigns? Which campaigns, please? 25 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I said any of your campaigns. 84 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Do I need to read it back? 3 MR. MAGUIRE: Actually, I'd appreciate it if 4 you read it back. 5 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you recall previously 6 having any independent expenditures for any of your 7 campaigns being investigated for improper coordination? 8 A. I don't recall that being the case. I mean, 9 your candidate, Chris Gregoire, is the only Attorney 10 General from Washington history to be fined by the 11 public disclosure commission for illegal campaign 12 practices. I haven't. 13 Q. So the question is no you're not going it -- 14 MR. PATTERSON: Don't put words in his mouth. 15 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm asking the question. 16 A. I don't recall that happening. 17 Q. Okay, thank you. When you ran for governor in 18 2004, did the BIAW fund independent expenditures either 19 for you or against Christine Gregoire? 20 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form. What does 21 this have to do with the scope of this election? 22 Please, Mr. Lowney, give me some guidance. 23 MR. LOWNEY: I'm going to say this one time, 24 and you can put your objections on the record. In my 25 request my request for supplemental brief and brief that 85 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 was submitted the other day that caused the judge to 3 grant this deposition, I said we requested to conduct 4 expedited discovery on the subject of BIAW's 5 relationship and coordination with Dino Rossi. 6 This has to do with his relationship, the 7 relationship between these parties. It is fair game, 8 we're talking about it. It's appropriate for this. 9 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, you've just put 10 it on there. When you said fair game, it's a political 11 game for you, and it's a political game for your 12 candidate, and I'm appalled, I'm appalled that lawyers 13 enter into this sort of negotiation or this sort of 14 tactic. 15 MR. LOWNEY: Stop. 16 MR. PATTERSON: You can go ahead and ask him 17 about the 2004 because it's fair game, it's a political 18 game for you, it's not a political game for us. Go 19 ahead. 20 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When you ran for governor in 21 2000, did the BIAW expend expenditures either for you or 22 against Chris Gregoire? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Do you have any idea how much money the BIAW 25 spent on those independent expenditures? 86 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. What is the 3 relevancy of this? Mr. Lowney, please, tell me what the 4 relevancy is in 2004. 5 MR. LOWNEY: Your relevancy objections are 6 held for trial, as you know. 7 MR. PATTERSON: No, no, it's dealing with the 8 scope of what we're dealing with. 9 MR. LOWNEY: It is the history of the 10 relationship and independent expenditures and 11 coordinations and it is what the Court has given me 12 permission to take this deposition on. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Please don't yell, Mr. Lowney. 14 I know you're not used to this system, it does not 15 require you to yell, okay? 16 MR. LOWNEY: You have not heard me yell. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Yes you did, you raised your 18 voice. 19 MR. LOWNEY: I raised my voice. There's a 20 difference between yelling and raising my voice. If you 21 can please answer my question. 22 A. What was the question again? 23 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you have any idea how much 24 money it spent on these independent expenditures? 25 A. BIAW? 87 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. Yes. 3 MR. PATTERSON: In 2004. 4 A. No. 5 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. Did you coordinate, 6 did you coordinate with BIAW during the 2004 election 7 cycle? 8 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 9 question. It also calls for a legal conclusion. Way 10 beyond the scope. 11 MR. MAGUIRE: Same objections. 12 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Thank you. You can answer. 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did any of your campaign staff have regular 15 contact with the BIAW during the period during which 16 they were making independent expenditures in 2004 17 election cycle? 18 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, you're going to 19 have to convince a judge that this is within the scope. 20 You're going way beyond. I'm going to advise him not to 21 answer these questions unless you give me a clear 22 direction that 2004 activities have anything to do with 23 these issues. 24 MR. MAGUIRE: I'll object that you're calling 25 for speculation. 88 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) To your knowledge did any of 3 your campaign staff have regular contact with the BIAW 4 during the time that the BIAW was funding independent 5 expenditures during the 2004 election cycle? 6 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. Go ahead, you 7 can answer this. 8 A. I have no knowledge of that. 9 MR. PATTERSON: This is harassment at this 10 point in time. 11 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you visit the BIAW 12 headquarters in the 12 months before the 2004 election? 13 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, we're going to 14 get the judge on the line because the 2004 election is 15 not at issue here, Mr. Lowney. You are putting on a 16 political charade here. I'm not going to -- I'm going 17 to advise you not to answer that, Mr. Rossi, only 18 because he's asking about 2004. If it's somehow 19 connected and you make the nexus between 2004 and 2008 20 then fine, but we're way beyond 2004. 21 MR. LOWNEY: These questions, Mr. Patterson 22 will be answered between now and next Tuesday, I'd like 23 to ask them today so I don't have to interrupt 24 Mr. Rossi's schedule any more than necessary. 25 MR. PATTERSON: Tell me why -- you know, 89 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 that's been your whole ploy. 3 MR. LOWNEY: I can hold that if you want until 4 the judge -- 5 MR. PATTERSON: No, I want you to connect it 6 up. 7 MR. LOWNEY: I have already told you that 8 these are the issues that I'm taking the deposition on, 9 the relationship between BIAW and Mr. Rossi, and that's 10 what I have permission to take the deposition on. 11 MR. MAGUIRE: There are no claims in the 12 complaint that deal with with the 2004 election. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Absolutely nothing. 14 MR. MAGUIRE: This is far outside the scope of 15 the complaint, let alone the discovery. 16 MR. LOWNEY: Relevancy answers, as you know, 17 are not appropriate for a deposition, they are preserved 18 for the time I try and use them. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Wait a minute. Your whole 20 pitch to the judge was that the reason why we need to 21 take this deposition prior to the election is we need to 22 find out about the preelection remedies and the 23 injunctive relief and all of these issues. That has 24 nothing to do with this and she narrowly defined the 25 scope. And what is with the 2004? It's not in your 90 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 complaint. Show me where in the complaint you refer to 3 2004 election. 4 MR. LOWNEY: And you have instructed him not 5 to answer; is that right? 6 MR. PATTERSON: No, he can go ahead and 7 answer, but I'll tell you one thing, you're going to eat 8 up your time on this thing. 9 MR. LOWNEY: No, you are eating up my time. 10 If you could answer please. 11 MR. PATTERSON: No, I'm not eating up your 12 time, I'm representing my client. 13 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If you can answer please do. 14 A. What was the question again. 15 Q. Did you visit the BIAW headquarters in the 12 16 months before the 2004 election? 17 A. So that would have been 2003? I don't recall. 18 Q. Okay. Did BIAW staff or officers visit your 19 campaign headquarters during that time that you recall? 20 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. 21 A. No, I don't recall. 22 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Don't recall, okay? 23 MR. PATTERSON: This is just pure evidence of 24 your political activity in asking these questions. 25 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you share non-public 91 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 information with the BIAW during the 2004 election 3 cycle? 4 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection, vague. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. Form. 6 MR. MAGUIRE: And outside the scope. 7 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If you recall. 8 A. No, that wouldn't be the right way to answer 9 that. Read the question again. 10 Q. Did you share non-public information with the 11 BIAW during that campaign cycle? 12 A. Non-public information such as? 13 Q. Yes. Information that you or your campaign 14 had about the campaign, about your fund raising, about 15 anything -- 16 A. Yard signs, that kind of thing? What? 17 Q. Anything related to your campaign, sharing 18 non-public information with the BIAW. 19 A. I never shared any non-public information with 20 BIAW. 21 Q. Did the BIAW tell you or your campaign staff 22 their campaign plans for independent expenditures during 23 that election cycle? 24 MR. PATTERSON: Are you talking about 2004? 25 MR. LOWNEY: Yes. 92 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. No knowledge of that. 3 MR. MAGUIRE: Same objection. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. You are way, 5 way outside the field here. We're dealing with the 2008 6 election here. 7 MR. WITHEY: You made your point, Mike. 8 MR. LOWNEY: We're moving to that. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Help me understand what's 10 relevant about this. 11 MR. LOWNEY: It's relevant because I have 12 permission to take the deposition on these subjects. 13 MR. PATTERSON: What's relevant with regard to 14 the scope, though, with the exigency to take the 15 deposition before this election you're going to ask him 16 what happened before 2004? That belies the whole issue 17 here. (Phone interruption.) 18 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Lowney is on the phone. 19 That's discourteous for you to have your phone on. 20 MR. LOWNEY: The record -- the partial record 21 is being forwarded to the judge that we sent earlier 22 today, and that was on the record. Excuse me for that 23 interruption, but it is relevant to our deposition. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Have somebody else answer your 25 phone. 93 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Now, Mr. Rossi, you did 3 coordinate with the BIAW during the election recount 4 process; is that correct? 5 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Come on, 7 Mr. Lowney, please, get real. We're dealing -- you 8 wanted to take this deposition because of the urgency, 9 and you're asking about 2004? We're in a different 10 campaign now. 11 MR. LOWNEY: Mike, you're taking. 12 MR. WITHEY: Say what you have. 13 MR. PATTERSON: This is frivolous, frivolous. 14 MR. LOWNEY: You are spending more time out of 15 this deposition than either me or Mr. Rossi combined, so 16 I would appreciate you to just make your objections 17 briefly and let us move on. 18 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, I'm not going 19 to allow a political activist to run his campaign during 20 a deposition and to ask about questions that go back to 21 2003 and 2004 when you tried to convince this judge that 22 the urgency of taking this deposition had something to 23 do with this election. I think this is outrageous. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'll ask the question again. 25 You did coordinate with the BIAW during the election 94 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 recount process, didn't you? 3 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Outside the scope. 4 Mischaracterizes the facts. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. 6 MR. LOWNEY: Objections are noted and 7 preserved. 8 MR. PATTERSON: And I'm going to advise him 9 not to answer that question because you're getting so 10 far afield. 11 MR. LOWNEY: You're going to ask -- 12 MR. WITHEY: Ask another one. 13 MR. LOWNEY: No, it's my turn. 14 MR. WITHEY: If he obstructs it's in contempt 15 of the court. 16 MR. PATTERSON: No I'm not. 17 MR. LOWNEY: You have instructed him not to 18 answer the question. 19 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead and answer the 20 question if you know. 21 A. I don't recall. 22 MR. PATTERSON: We're going to take our break 23 now, it's noon. And Mr. Lowney, I'd advise you to 24 please take a careful look at your notes there. 25 MR. LOWNEY: I'm going to continue exactly as 95 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 we're going. 3 MR. PATTERSON: In 2004? 4 MR. LOWNEY: You know, the 2004 is going to be 5 over soon. If you let me get through it. 6 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, I'm going to 7 ask for terms against you -- 8 MR. LOWNEY: I appreciate that, go ahead. 9 MR. PATTERSON: You're not using this 10 political process appropriately. 11 MR. LOWNEY: Go ahead, I would like you to do 12 that, I would encourage you to. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Especially when you indicate 14 under declaration that the reason why you want to take 15 Mr. Rossi's deposition is because the public needs to 16 know what's happening in 2008 and you're going back to 17 2003 and 2004. This tells me that you have got a 18 political agenda. And whoever is paying you is paying 19 you because of the Democratic cause. 20 MR. WITHEY: I thought under the circumstances 21 it was Gregoire paying him, Mike. 22 (Off the record.) 23 (Deposition adjourned at 12:19 p.m., to be 24 reconvened at 1:00 p.m.) 25 96 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 AFTERNOON SESSION 3 1:00 p.m. 4 --oOo-- 5 6 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) We're back on the record. 7 Last before we broke you suggested -- you said you 8 didn't not recall whether or not you coordinated with 9 BIAW during the election recount process. 10 A. Can you read back what it was. 11 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 12 question. Mischaracterizes previous answer. 13 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Well, I'm just going to move 14 on. 15 A. Okay, good. 16 A. Well, I'd like to hear what you said. 17 Q. Actually, I was just getting to our place? 18 MR. PATTERSON: He can hear it in context. 19 MR. LOWNEY: No. 20 MR. PATTERSON: The witness can hear the 21 context of what you want to put this. 22 MR. LOWNEY: I have withdrawn the question. 23 MR. PATTERSON: Okay. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to give you what's 25 been marked as Exhibit 8, and I'm going to mark 97 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 something for you. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Highlight it you mean? 4 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Have you seen this document 5 before? 6 A. No. I don't know what it is. 7 Q. Okay. It does appear to be BIAW news 8 highlights from January 3, 2005. Does that appear to be 9 what it is? 10 11 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Lack of foundation, 12 lack of authentication. 13 MR. PATTERSON: The witness already indicated 14 he doesn't know what it is. 15 A. I have no idea what this is. 16 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. It does say on it -- 17 MR. PATTERSON: Can the witness have an 18 opportunity to take a look at it? 19 MR. LOWNEY: Sure. 20 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'd like to direct -- 21 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on, he's looking at it. 22 MR. LOWNEY: I'm directing his attention to a 23 particular -- 24 MR. PATTERSON: I know, can he look at it 25 first. 98 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. LOWNEY: Yes, he can while I'm speaking 3 with him. For the convenience of the witness I've 4 copied the entire documents and I'm going to direct his 5 attention to certain portions of them. 6 MR. PATTERSON: But he's never seen this 7 document before, he's allowed to put it many context and 8 if you're going to use it as an exhibit then give him an 9 opportunity to review it. And then you can call him to 10 the specific area. 11 A. Can I read the document first? 12 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can read the portion that 13 I'm referring you will to. It's the first paragraph, 14 it's the only thing relevant. 15 A. I can't read anything else? 16 Q. The relevant portion is the first paragraph? 17 MR. PATTERSON: It's relevant according to 18 you. Under the rules you've handed him an exhibit. 19 MR. LOWNEY: You certainly have permission to 20 read the entire document. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. 22 A. Thank you. 23 MR. WITHEY: Can we have the amount of time it 24 takes him to read it. 25 THE REPORTER: We have time stamps on the 99 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 transcript. 3 MR. PATTERSON: What does that have anything 4 to do. You're the one giving him the exhibits. Are you 5 trying to say he doesn't have the right to read an 6 exhibit? 7 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'd like the record to 8 reflect that we've taken, what, two minutes to read a 9 one-page document. This document does say -- 10 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on a second. It's a 11 one-page document you're going to be asking about. It's 12 single spaced and goes over to the next side. Are you 13 saying my client doesn't have the rights to read this 14 document? 15 MR. LOWNEY: This transcript will also be sent 16 to the judge and I would appreciate for you to limit 17 your comments so that I can move forward with the 18 deposition. I have only two hours. 19 MR. PATTERSON: I'm reacting to your comments, 20 Mr. Lowney, by characterizing the fact that he's taken 21 an inordinate amount of time to read a document in a 22 deposition. Go ahead. 23 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) This document states that 24 BIAW members and staff are continuing to do everything 25 possible to assist Dino Rossi in finding the necessary 100 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 ammunition to legally challenge the election. 3 Does that refresh your recollection as to 4 assistance that BIAW provided you in your campaign 5 during the recount process? 6 A. Is it doesn't say what they did. I don't 7 know -- 8 Q. I know, I'm asking does this refresh your 9 recollection. 10 A. Well, they were helpful, sure. 11 Q. How were they helpful? 12 A. They were out there concerned about election 13 fraud, which ended up resulting in the end where they 14 found that a large number of people who were dead 15 actually voted, and they found that there was hundreds 16 more votes in King County that were cast that they 17 couldn't actually connect to any individuals that cast 18 the ballot. They found that thousands of felons had 19 voted and they were out there looking through the 20 country side to find where the election fraud was, and 21 they discovered quite a bit of it in the end which I 22 thought maybe I wasn't going too far out on a limb by 23 saying every vote should have a voter. 24 Q. They provided this information directly to you 25 and your campaign? 101 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I don't know where it went from there. 3 Nothing was given to me. 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge of them giving that 5 information to you or your campaign? 6 A. I don't know where the information -- this was 7 quite a while ago. 8 Q. Okay, so your testimony is you don't recall 9 that happening? 10 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. He's already 11 answered the question. Don't try too characterize his 12 answers, Mr. Lowney. 13 MR. LOWNEY: I'm clarifying the answer. Your 14 testimony is that you do not recall? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 16 question. 17 18 MR. MAGUIRE: Object. This is all outside 19 the scope of discovery. 20 MR. PATTERSON: It is. Go ahead and answer 21 the way that you've answered before. 22 A. Yeah. I'm not sure exactly what came across 23 or what didn't come across. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) How much time did you spend 25 at the BIAW headquarters during the recount process? 102 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I don't know that I was there. I'm not sure. 3 Q. Okay? 4 MR. PATTERSON: I note my objection again to 5 the 2004 election. 6 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did any of your campaign 7 staff work out of the BIAW headquarters during the 8 recount process? 9 A. No idea. 10 Q. Did any of the BIAW staff work out of the Dino 11 Rossi headquarters during that recount process? 12 13 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Outside the scope. 14 A. I was hardly ever in the Dino Rossi 15 headquarters during that election contest. You know, we 16 had just gone through an election that came down to 17 where after three million votes were cast, I was 18 certified the winner by 261 votes, and then automatic 19 recount had me certified by 43 votes, and then the hand 20 recount by some of your friends like moveon.org during 21 the recount process moveon.org and others. The hand 22 recount flipped it by 129 votes in King County. The 23 last thing I was interested in doing was being in 24 political office at that point in time. 25 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. After the hand recount 103 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 had found that you lost the 2004 election, you filed a 3 lawsuit to try and overturn that decision; is that 4 correct? 5 A. That's false. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. You don't need to 7 respond. 8 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Were you involved in 9 challenging that final hand recount? 10 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 11 question. What do you mean by involved? 12 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Was your name on a lawsuit 13 challenging the recount? 14 A. The state party filed a lawsuit, I believe, is 15 what it was. 16 Q. Did you give them the consent to file that 17 lawsuit? 18 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 19 question. Assumes facts not in evidence and also it 20 asks for a legal conclusion as though they needed his 21 consent to do it. 22 A. My consent wasn't necessary. 23 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So did you give your consent 24 for the party to file a lawsuit challenging the hand 25 recount? 104 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Outside the scope. 3 MR. PATTERSON: You know, what is this with 4 2004 election? 5 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) The question is did you give 6 your consent to that. That's the question. 7 MR. MAGUIRE: Same objection. 8 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer the question. 9 A. So what do you mean by consent? Did I write 10 them a letter and tell them to go do it? What did I do? 11 What is consent? 12 Q. Your name was on the lawsuit, is that correct, 13 as a party to the lawsuit? 14 MR. PATTERSON: Go ahead. 15 A. It was awhile ago. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, I know. This whole area 17 is just -- it's baffling for me. 18 MR. LOWNEY: I'm trying to move through it. 19 If I can get the answer. If you don't recall you can 20 say you don't recall. I understand it's been awhile 21 ago. 22 A. I don't recall, but whether I gave consent or 23 not, they're free to go do what they would like. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. Do you believe that 25 you gave your consent for the party to file the lawsuit 105 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 challenging -- 3 A. Is that a question. 4 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Asked and 5 answered. 6 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm saying your belief. 7 MR. PATTERSON: No, asked and answered. 8 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer that. 9 A. So you want me to speculate what I believed in 10 2005, is that what you want me to do? 11 MR. PATTERSON: Don't speculate. 12 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If you recall. 13 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Asked and answered. 14 A. Don't recall. 15 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you see the complaint 16 before it was filed? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Once again, objection to this 18 whole line of questioning about the 2004 election. 19 A. I don't recall seeing the claim before it was 20 filed. 21 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did you want a revote? 22 A. Did I want a revote? 23 Q. Yeah. 24 A. Yes, I think that would have been the logical 25 thing to do. 106 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. And if the judge allowed a revote were you 3 planning to have -- to have -- to participate as a 4 candidate for the revote? 5 A. You know, actually what I said was that if the 6 judge were to -- it was so muddled up at the end there 7 was no way of knowing who actually won the election in 8 the end, and if the judge flipped it over for me to 9 become governor I would immediately resign, because I 10 wouldn't want to be there as an illegitimate governor. 11 And when you take a more accurate method by which is a 12 machine count and overturn it with a less accurate 13 method as many of your Democrat friend auditors said it 14 was a less accurate method, and you would have nothing 15 more than an illegitimate governorship. So I said at 16 that point in time if the judge were to flip it over 17 that I would immediately resign and seek for a revote so 18 we can actually have a legitimate election. But you 19 also would have to clean up the system of which our 20 secretary of state, Sam Reed, didn't have a statewide 21 database before, now he does, and with the statewide 22 voter database he's wiped off 465,000 registration 23 voting rolls that shouldn't have been there before. 24 465,000 -- 25 Q. I'm going to have to strike as nonresponsive. 107 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Wait -- I need to take the -- 3 we have a certain amount of time for this deposition and 4 I get to control this deposition. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Wait a minute. You do not -- 6 that is clearly inappropriate to interrupt the witness. 7 You can move to strike after he's been completed. You 8 better learn the rules here before you start engaging in 9 this sort of composition conduct. 10 A. So there were 465,000 registrations he took 11 off the voting rolls. He took off felons and dead 12 people and the voting rolls are now cleaned up. That 13 would have to also -- we try to move to clean that up 14 before we actually go for a row vote. 15 MR. MAGUIRE: We just received an e-mail from 16 the Court addressed to all counsel saying the Court 17 would like to know if the deposition is in progress now 18 and if so why is there a request to have a telephone 19 conversation at 2:55 p.m. That's in your response to 20 the court. In case you want to respond to the Court. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Why don't we go off the record 22 here. 23 (Discussion off the record.) 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When the lawsuit was not 25 successful, did you make the decision not to file an 108 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 appeal? 3 A. Yes, I did. I pulled -- yeah, I said, I'm not 4 going to go further than this. We had the majority of 5 the Supreme Court that clearly would not be in favor for 6 this. One used to work for Christine Gregoire herself 7 and so it didn't make a lot of sense to go further than 8 Wenatchee. 9 Q. And are you familiar with how much money the 10 BIAW spent in supporting your recount effort and the -- 11 yeah. 12 A. I'm not familiar with the total dollars that 13 were spent. 14 Q. Does $1.7 million sound correct? 15 A. Sounds like a lot. 16 Q. Have you heard that term before? 17 A. Not 1.7, no. 18 Q. Did you have any conversations with the BIAW 19 about their support for your effort during the recount 20 and the election contest? 21 A. With BIAW? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. I'm not recall what conversations we had, if 24 any. 25 Q. Did you have regular conversations with the 109 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 attorneys on the case, David Wright Tremaine during the 3 election contest? 4 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 5 question. You cannot -- that's breaching the 6 attorney-client privilege if in fact that's -- 7 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm not getting into the 8 content at all. Did you have conversations with -- I'm 9 trying to establish whether the attorney-client 10 privilege existed at that time? 11 MR. PATTERSON: If -- the attorney-client 12 privilege is much broader than that, you know, and you 13 can't even ask whether or not they had conversations. 14 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Were you represented by Davis 15 Wright Tremaine during that election contest? 16 MR. MAGUIRE: Object. Outside the scope. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Clearly outside the scope. 18 And I note for the record that we're now 35 minutes or 19 40 minutes on 2004 election. I think this is an abuse 20 of process. 21 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer the question? 22 A. What was the question? 23 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 24 A. My understanding is they were representing the 25 Washington state Republican party because they're the 110 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 one that brought the suit, and I was part of that too, I 3 guess. I was named on it, I guess, but I -- the state 4 party was driving it. 5 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) After the election contest 6 was over, did you ask BIAW to assist you in paying off 7 the legal fees owed to Davis Wright Tremaine? 8 A. I asked them to assist in paying the state 9 party the legal fees of the state party had. 10 Q. How much money did you ask them for? 11 A. I don't remember what the bill was in the end. 12 Q. Does it sound possible that you asked them to 13 pay $2 million towards your legal fees? 14 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Outside the scope. 15 This is now harassing. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. I'm going to 17 advise him not to answer any further questions along 18 this line unless you can give me a demonstrable piece of 19 evidence as to why this is anything relevant, and if in 20 fact you're going towards a PDC issue, the PDC already 21 looked into this and told him exactly what he needed to 22 do. 23 MR. LOWNEY: I will be linking it up. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer the question. 25 MR. PATTERSON: What's the question? 111 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 3 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 4 question insofar as possible only. Only if you have a 5 recollection. 6 A. I didn't ask them to pay $2 million for legal 7 fees. 8 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So if meeting minutes of the 9 BIAW said that you asked for $2 million, would you think 10 that those meeting minutes would be incorrect? 11 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 12 question. Mischaracterizes any evidence. If you've got 13 meeting minutes, show them to us right now. 14 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm just asking you if you 15 feel that that would be incorrect, those meeting 16 minutes? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Show me the meeting minutes. 18 Show us the meeting minutes. 19 MR. MAGUIRE: This calls for speculation. 20 MR. PATTERSON: Calls for speculation. 21 22 MR. MAGUIRE: Incomplete hypothetical. 23 A. Can I see the meeting minutes? 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you need to see the 25 minutes to refresh your recollection about whether or 112 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 not you asked for $2 million? 3 A. I'm just trying to decide if you're making 4 this up or just like you have with this lawsuit, just 5 like you did with the one with Mike McGavick, the phony 6 lawsuit that was thrown out, you tried to cloud the 7 issue on a major U.S. senate race in 2006 and was thrown 8 out after the fact, I'm trying to figure out if you 9 actually have any information here at all. 10 Q. I'm moving to strike that, but I would ask -- 11 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on, let him finish, 12 please. He's not interrupting you. Go ahead. 13 A. Because this is clearly -- what's going on 14 here is a farce, and you did this with Mike McGavick and 15 now you're doing it with me. Unfortunately it was 16 allowed to go too far here. You've done this time and 17 time again, this is what you do for a living, 18 apparently. 19 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And so it is your testimony 20 today that you don't recall ever asking for $2 million 21 from the BIAW? 22 A. No, that's not my testimony. My testimony is 23 asking you for the minutes because I don't believe what 24 you tell me because you're not a -- 25 Q. I'm just asking -- 113 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Credible. 3 MR. PATTERSON: Show us the minutes, please. 4 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) What did you say? 5 A. It's not credible. Your lawsuit against Mike 6 McGavick isn't credible and this isn't credible. 7 Q. Can I ask you to answer the question, which is 8 do you recall whether or not you asked for $2 million 9 from the BIAW to pay off your attorneys fees? 10 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Asked and answered. 11 Assumes facts not in evidence, not in evidence. 12 A. I said I don't recall asking BIAW for $2 13 million. 14 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay, thank you. Do you 15 recall asking for a smaller amount from the BIAW? 16 A. I don't know what the amount that covered the 17 state party was. I don't remember? 18 Q. You don't recall how much you asked for? 19 A. I don't recall. 20 Q. Do you recall asking for money from the BIAW? 21 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 22 question. You've asked and answered these questions 23 over and over again. 24 MR. LOWNEY: I'm looking for the answer. 25 MR. PATTERSON: Yes you are getting the 114 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 answer. You're not sprucing. This is not a hide the 3 ball lawsuit here. 4 MR. WITHEY: No, it's not. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Either you have it or not, 6 Mr. Lowney. Show us the minutes. 7 MR. LOWNEY: I'm trying to ask the question to 8 the witness about if you recall how much money you asked 9 BIAW to give to pay off your legal fees. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 11 question. 12 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And if you don't recall you 13 can say I don't recall. 14 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Mischaracterizes 15 evidence. Incomplete hypothetical, calls for 16 speculation, outside the scope of discovery. 17 MR. PATTERSON: And I join with that 18 objection. 19 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Now you can answer. 20 A. It wasn't my legal fees, it was the state 21 party's legal fees. 22 Q. I understand. 23 A. And so you characterize it as my legal fees, 24 which is inaccurate. And the dollar amount I don't 25 recall what it was. 115 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. Do you recall how much they ultimately paid -- 3 A. No, I don't. 4 Q. Do you know, do you recall whether or not they 5 paid -- whether or not the BIAW paid anything for your 6 legal fees? 7 A. I don't recall what they did in the end. 8 Q. Okay. And did you ask about how the 9 transaction would go down whether they should pay money 10 to Davis Wright Tremaine directly or to the state 11 Republican party, is that something you discussed? 12 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Lowney, this is getting 13 way over the top. We are talking about 2008 election 14 here. You've convinced this court for whatever reason 15 about the urgency, and we are talking about 2004 issues. 16 And we are now 45 minutes into the 2004 issue. Please, 17 please tell me that there's more to this. 18 MR. LOWNEY: It's almost done, this part. I'm 19 ready to move on as soon as I get the question. 20 MR. PATTERSON: It is going to move on because 21 I'm about ready to instruct him not to answer. 22 MR. MAGUIRE: We'll seek a protective order 23 for this line of questioning. We want to ask this 24 question as well, and you're using up the time 25 inefficiently their different from what you represented 116 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 to the Court for purposes of expedited discovery. 3 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let's talk about the forward 4 Washington case. In that case you did give testimony 5 about becoming a candidate; is that correct? Yes or no? 6 MR. PATTERSON: No, he doesn't have to answer 7 yes or no. 8 MR. LOWNEY: He is a hostile witness and I 9 have the option of asking him a direct leading question, 10 please. 11 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah but you can't restrict 12 him to yes or no. He's going to be allowed to answer 13 the question the way he deems appropriate. 14 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) In the forward Washington 15 case -- I'll rephrase the question. In the forward 16 Washington case -- 17 A. The public disclosure case? 18 Q. Yes. You gave testimony about when you became 19 a candidate; is that correct? 20 A. The state Democratic party filed a phony PDC 21 complaint just like you have here claiming that somehow 22 I was a candidate, and what they hung their hat on is 23 that we had filed paperwork during the election contest 24 that said that I was a candidate. The reason we did 25 that is because the PDC told us that we had to because 117 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 they had no way of tracking money for the -- for 3 election contest because they really had no mechanism 4 for that. They're the ones that told us to. They did a 5 six-month investigation and interrogated dozens of 6 people and in the end they concluded that I was not a 7 candidate as we've been talking about all day long. And 8 that's after six months of trying to find whatever they 9 could that would declare I was a candidate. Those words 10 never crossed my lips that I was a candidate until my 11 wife and I decided the morning of October 11, 2007, when 12 I thought it was right for my family and it was the 13 right thing to do would be to run for governor. And 14 until then, and most of the time what we're supposed to 15 be talking about here which was supposed to be back in 16 2007, like I said before, I was 75 percent sure I 17 wouldn't be running for office again. 18 Q. But it is the case, is it not, that the 19 question of your interaction with the BIAW never came up 20 during that investigation; is that correct? 21 22 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Mischaracterizes 23 facts. 24 A. I don't recall. 25 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah, same objection. 118 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You don't recall? 3 MR. PATTERSON: Not only that, you are 4 covering ground that Mr. Withey has already covered this 5 morning, and that's the issue on candidacy. 6 MR. LOWNEY: He was asking general questions 7 about -- 8 MR. WITHEY: Ask another question. 9 MR. PATTERSON: You're not going to repeat the 10 same ground. 11 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When you attended the 12 semiahoo summer BIAW board meeting on June 29, 2007, you 13 were giving a speech there for forward Washington; is 14 that correct? 15 MR. PATTERSON: You know, I'm going to object 16 once again. This is ground that was covered by 17 Mr. Withey. I don't understand why you can't move on to 18 different areas. The court allowed you to have two 19 questions but not to repeat questions. 20 MR. WITHEY: Mike, you're giving another 21 speaking objection. I only covered it in the broad 22 sense, he was going to ask detailed questions. Go 23 ahead, ask another question. You're giving speaking 24 objections again. 25 MR. PATTERSON: The only reference you made on 119 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 that was with regard to the lunch. That was the only 3 reference you made with regard to that issue. 4 MR. WITHEY: He's asking a different question. 5 MR. PATTERSON: Well, they're not different 6 questions. 7 MR. WITHEY: Go ahead. 8 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You were there to give a 9 speech before Washington? 10 A. I was the lunchtime speaker and I gave a 11 PowerPoint presentation on proving the business climate 12 in the State of Washington for small and medium sized 13 businesses. I was president of the forward Washington 14 foundation which is a non-profit, non-partisan 15 foundation that the Democrats filed a phony PDC 16 complaint against. They tried to claim that somehow I 17 was a candidate because I was using my first amendment 18 rights of free speech, which I still actually have and 19 had then, to talk about issues at the state level. And 20 that's what I was doing there. 21 Q. Okay. And did you attend the executive 22 committee meeting in the morning? 23 A. I don't recall that. 24 Q. Okay. And when did you arrive at semiahoo 25 that day? 120 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I don't remember. 3 Q. Did you attend the entire board meeting? 4 A. I don't think so. I gave a speech, a 5 lunchtime speech. 6 Q. Do you recall who introduced you? 7 A. No. I've given thousands of speeches in the 8 last couple of years. I don't recall everybody who has 9 actually introduced me at these events. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Tell me, Mr. Lowney, that 11 you're going to get to something relevant here and 12 within the scope of what the Court anticipated, the 13 urgency of this deposition would be. 14 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And did you stay until the 15 end of the meeting? 16 A. I don't recall. 17 Q. Do you recall having conversations with anyone 18 else at Semiahmoo other than -- who did you give -- have 19 conversations with there? 20 A. It wasn't that memorable so I'm sure I 21 probably talked to -- I mean there was a lot of people 22 there. I'm sure I probably talked to Tom Mc Cabe was 23 there, he was with the BIAW. 24 Q. Do you recall any conversations -- 25 MR. PATTERSON: Hang on, hang on. 121 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Do you want me to think about it? 3 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Yeah, go ahead. 4 A. I'm trying to remember. I mean, there were a 5 lot of people there. 6 Q. Do you have -- so your testimony to the PDC 7 was that you didn't collect any money prior to October 8 12, 2007, that was correct? 9 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 10 question. Mischaracterizes the testimony, but go ahead. 11 A. For what? 12 MR. PATTERSON: Your recollection. 13 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is that your testimony? 14 A. For what? 15 Q. You told the PDC that you didn't collect any 16 money for your 2008 governor race prior to October 12, 17 2007; is that correct? 18 A. Right. Well, I made the announcement on 19 October 11 -- I mean not an announcement but that's when 20 I made the decision. 21 Q. Did you receive any pledges for funds prior to 22 October 12, 2007? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you spend any money on your campaign prior 25 to that date? 122 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. It was no campaign. I wasn't a candidate for 3 governor at that point in time, I hadn't made the 4 decision until October 11 of 2007. I think we've 5 already covered that. 6 Q. Did you spend any money on exploring the 7 possibility of running for governor prior to that time? 8 A. No. That's an active of starting a campaign 9 if you were to do that, and I did not do that. 10 Q. Did you have anyone assist you to set the 11 ground work for a potential campaign prior to that time? 12 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Vague. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. Go ahead. 14 A. I mean, what kind of ground work? I don't 15 understand what you mean. 16 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Well, let's say did you ask 17 anybody to start preparing a fund raising plan for you? 18 A. No, I had no fund raising plan. I was not a 19 candidate for governor. At that point in time I was 20 about 75 percent sure I would not be running for 21 governor precisely for the reasons that we're here 22 today, and the toll it takes on one's family to actually 23 run for public office when you have people taking 24 partisan pot shots at you and your family throughout 25 this process like we're doing here today. 123 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. Uh-huh. And so it is your testimony, would it 3 be correct to say, that between October 12th and the end 4 of the month you were able to from scratch create a fund 5 raising plan and raise almost a half a million dollars? 6 A. Oh, certainly. I'll tell you exactly how that 7 works is that when I started campaigning in 2004 -- 8 well, actually 2003 when I became a candidate, I had 12 9 percent name ID statewide. You know, most people in the 10 state knew Dino Rossi at that point in time. Right now 11 when I started this last time I started with probably 80 12 or 90 percent name ID so I could easily pick up, you 13 know, a phone book and find people who were contributors 14 to my campaign last time just looking at my old PDCs and 15 made phone calls. I made no phone calls to anybody for 16 candidate before I actually became a candidate because I 17 wasn't sure I was going to run. The conditions that I 18 laid out for me to run was 75 percent statewide said I 19 was not likely to do it is one of the main pieces was 20 because of my family. You know, we have four children 21 at that point in time there was between 6 and 16 years 22 old. This is not an easy thing on the family. And 23 that's why I had to make sure it was right for my family 24 first before I made any decisions beyond that. 25 Q. And was it possible that your fund raising 124 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 consultant was laying the ground work and lining up 3 contributors prior to the time that -- prior to October 4 12th? 5 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 6 question insofar as you used the term possible, and it 7 also calls for speculation.. 8 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is it possible? 9 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. 10 A. I mean, I don't know. I mean it's -- I'm not 11 going to say it's possible, that's for sure. 12 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Do you have any reason to 13 believe or disbelieve that your fund raiser, Amy Barns 14 was contacting people ahead of time to line up 15 contributors prior to October 12, 2007? 16 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Vague. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. 18 MR. MAGUIRE: Contributors to a campaign? Or 19 Forward Washington? 20 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Contributors to your 2008 21 governors race. 22 A. The 2008 governors race. 23 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 24 A. I have no reason to believe she was doing 25 that. 125 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And when you attended the -- 3 you were a keynote at Semiahmoo, do you recall the BIAW 4 presenting poll results? 5 A. I don't recall that. 6 Q. When did you first learn about BIAW's efforts 7 to raise funds from their local affiliates for the 2008 8 governor's race? 9 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 10 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection, and this has 11 been asked and answered by Mr. Withey. And also I'm 12 objecting to the form of the question as it relates to 13 your term affiliates. 14 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) By affiliates I'm referring 15 to Master Builders Associations and the other 15 or 17 16 local affiliates. You can answer the question, please. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 18 question. 19 MR. LOWNEY: I understand your objection. 20 MR. PATTERSON: You're assuming that he knows 21 who these 15 affiliates are. 22 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When did you first learn of 23 BIAW's efforts to raise funds from local affiliates for 24 the 2008 governor's race? 25 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 126 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question. Assumes facts not in evidence that he even 3 heard that. 4 A. I'm not sure that I have the information as to 5 when they did that so I don't know when that would be 6 the case. 7 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So in 2007 in the April, May 8 and June timeframe, did you have any idea that BIAW was 9 trying to create a pot of money for the 2008 governor's 10 race? 11 A. I know they were trying to come together on 12 supporting all candidates across the state that were pro 13 small business candidates. I don't know how their 14 interworkings of the money works, I don't know if they 15 have a separate pot for legislative candidates or a 16 separate pot for Attorney General's. I have no idea how 17 their funds work. So to tell you that I knew that they 18 were doing something in that manner is inaccurate. It 19 was for supporting all small business candidates, 20 Republican and Democrat alike, and in a very general 21 sense. 22 Q. Okay. So when did you first learn that the 23 BIAW -- of the BIAW's efforts to raise funds from local 24 affiliates for supporting local candidates in the -- or 25 candidates -- excuse me, I'll restate that. 127 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 When did you first learn about BIAW's efforts 3 to raise funds from their local affiliates for electoral 4 activities in the 2008 election cycle? 5 MR. PATTERSON: Objection in that it 6 mischaracterizes his testimony. I know that you're 7 reading from a script and sometimes -- 8 MR. LOWNEY: No, I'm not. 9 MR. PATTERSON: You're not listening to the 10 answer because it doesn't track. He's already indicated 11 he doesn't know about any affiliates and now you're 12 asking about affiliates and so I'm objecting to the form 13 of the question and it's also a mischaracterizes. Go 14 ahead. 15 A. What's the question? 16 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 17 A. I don't know about 2008, but they're always 18 involved in BIAW's group and always involved in 19 political activities continuously, and it's at a local 20 level, state level, all the way around. I don't know if 21 they do federal stuff, and so it's one continuous 22 effort, just like your friends at SCIU or Washington 23 state labor council who are picketing in front of the 24 building right now who are paid by the Washington State 25 Labor Council or others. It's a continuous effort and 128 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 so a distinction between '08 and some other time, I 3 don't recall when that would have changed, if they're 4 somehow aligned. 5 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When you made the phone calls 6 to the local officers of the MBA, at that point did you 7 know that the BIAW was seeking funds from the MBA to 8 fund electoral activities? 9 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 10 question. Also mischaracterizes any testimony. Also 11 this is an area that's been covered by Mr. Withey. It's 12 been asked and answered. 13 MR. MAGUIRE: The question is vague as to 14 what telephone calls you're referring to. 15 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 16 A. They were seeking to fund electoral activities 17 on a broad based sense, not just funds but having the 18 support. Part of the problem was is that there was a 19 personality clash between the Seattle Master Builders 20 and the folks at the BIAW, and so me not being a 21 candidate and about 75 percent sure I wasn't going to 22 run again, they asked if I could bring the two together 23 because they promote small business candidates around 24 the state, which I support small business candidates 25 around the state. So that's what happened. 129 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And if you had brought them 3 together, would that have resulted in the MBA pooling 4 money with the BIAW for electoral activities? 5 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 6 question insofar as it asks for a hypothetical, calls 7 for him to speculate and mischaracterizes the testimony. 8 MR. MAGUIRE: Same objections. 9 A. I have no idea what they do, it's up to them. 10 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And when you called -- when 11 you made those three phone calls, did you -- who asked 12 you specifically to make those three phone calls to John 13 day, Joe Schwab and Doug barns that are reflected in the 14 May 21st MBA -- 2007 MBA minutes? 15 A. I talked to Tom Mc Cabe. He said that there 16 was a clash. 17 Q. And do you know when you spoke to Tom Mc Cabe? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Was it perhaps a week or two weeks or three 20 weeks before you made the phone call or a day? 21 A. I'm not speculating. I don't know. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 23 question insofar as you use the term perhaps. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did Tom Mc Cabe tell you who 25 these three people are or did you already know them? 130 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I had met -- I knew John day and I had met Joe 3 and Doug before. 4 Q. Okay. And did you know what their positions 5 with MBA are? 6 A. I wasn't sure what their current or former 7 positions are with the group. 8 Q. And where did you get their phone numbers? 9 A. I don't recall. 10 Q. Did you know that Daimon Doyle had previously 11 asked the MBA for a contribution to their electoral 12 activities? 13 A. Daimon Doyle was part of what happened here is 14 that Daimon Doyle went and talked to them and said you 15 will participate with us, and that was the part of the 16 difficulty between the group because they don't have to 17 do anything. And so they were upset and I think the 18 personalities clashed. And in the broader political 19 scope of this, it's better to have groups organized 20 together, especially a group like this, it's one of the 21 few that's a pro small business group and have them 22 organized and go in a certain direction to support pro 23 business, small business candidates. And unfortunately 24 the relationship was pretty severely severed at that 25 point in time. 131 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. And so can you restate the question, please? 3 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 4 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) That's the question. 5 A. What I got from Tom Mc Cabe is that the 6 Seattle Master Builders weren't going to participate 7 with them, you know, money or not, that wasn't really 8 part of the conversation. It was about how they were 9 not going to participate and these guys were not part of 10 the crew, not part of the group. 11 Q. And that's helpful information but the 12 question, if you could read it again please. 13 MR. PATTERSON: No, no, he's answered the 14 question. 15 MR. LOWNEY: No, he didn't. I asked 16 specifically -- 17 MR. PATTERSON: You're not the judge and jury 18 here. 19 MR. LOWNEY: I didn't get an answer to that 20 question and I'd appreciate Mr. Rossi's volunteering the 21 information he did, but I do have a right to get an 22 answer to the question that I asked. 23 MR. PATTERSON: You did get an answer. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Read the first question and 25 the first question. I've got a right to have the 132 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question read in the context. 3 MR. LOWNEY: Get the answer read? 4 MR. PATTERSON: Yeah. Don't you work 5 together? You've got to right before you on the 6 computer, to take more time out of my deposition time. 7 MR. PATTERSON: No,ize easier for her to do 8 that than for me to go back and scroll and find it, 9 okay? It's your issue. You're saying he wasn't 10 responsive, I'm saying he was. 11 MR. LOWNEY: You know, whether or not it is 12 my -- I need a yes or no answer to this. Please reread 13 it, that's fine. 14 MR. PATTERSON: You need to get off your 15 script and start asking some questions that are 16 meaningful in the scope of this litigation. MR. LOW4679 17 that was our exchange after that. So the question I'm 18 asking -- 19 MR. PATTERSON: No, no, he answered question. 20 Can you read the second answer. 21 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 22 MR. PATTERSON: And by reading those two 23 answers back, he absolutely clearly answered your 24 question. 25 MR. WITHEY: We'll let the judge decide that. 133 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Go ahead. 3 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So just talking 4 contributions, I know there's the bigger participation, 5 just focusing on financial contributions, it sounds like 6 you were aware that the BIAW had asked for a financial 7 contribution from the MBA prior to you making those 8 phone calls; is that correct? 9 MR. PATTERSON: I object to the form of the 10 question. I object to your mischaracterization, and the 11 form of the question is it sounds like you did this. Is 12 there a question before this witness that he can answer. 13 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Yes or no? 14 MR. PATTERSON: No, he doesn't have to answer 15 yes or no based upon your characterization. 16 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Were you aware that part of 17 what Daimon Doyle was asking for was in April was a 18 financial contribution for electoral activities? 19 MR. PATTERSON: From whom? 20 MR. LOWNEY: From the MBA. 21 A. From the MBA? That was part of the financial 22 part was part of their overall participation, but they 23 could give it or not, it's up to them. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. And so when you called 25 Doug barns, how long was your conversation? 134 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. You know, this has 3 been covered by Mr. Withey and I don't understand why 4 we're plowing old ground. My understanding was -- 5 MR. WITHEY: Mike, would you just make an 6 objection and don't give speaking objections. 7 MR. PATTERSON: You're the one that are saying 8 we're running out of time and you spend 50 minutes on 9 2004 and now he's asking the same questions you asked 10 this morning. 11 MR. WITHEY: Just make an objection, Mike, 12 that's all you have to do. 13 MR. PATTERSON: That's my objection. 14 MR. WITHEY: You're making speaking 15 objections. Go ahead. 16 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) How long was your 17 conversation with Mr. Barns? 18 A. I don't recall. 19 Q. Do you recall talking about any financial 20 contributions? 21 A. That I don't think so, no, I don't recall 22 that. 23 Q. Did you talk about the 2008 governor's race? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Did you talk about BIAW's efforts to fund 135 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 raise for its electoral activities? 3 A. Talked about them coming back together and 4 found out from them what they were upset with with 5 Daimon Doyle. 6 Q. And what were they upset about? 7 A. They were upset that he came in and said you 8 will participate with us, and apparently they have a 9 choice as to participate or not. And they didn't like 10 being told that. 11 Q. And were you encouraging them to participate? 12 A. My goal was to try to bring them back together 13 and participate as one because it's better to 14 participate as one than scattered as a shotgun. At that 15 point in time I clearly was not a candidate for 16 governor. 17 Q. Right. 18 A. So the whole point of this was to bring it 19 back together so they can support pro business 20 candidates across the state. 21 Q. Financially and otherwise? 22 A. The whole package. They'd have to decide 23 whether they wanted to do the financially or not. 24 Q. When you called Joe Schwab, do you recall how 25 long your conversation was? 136 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did you talk about those same issues with him? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Do you recall talking about the 2008 6 governor's race? 7 A. No. You know, from the standpoint, everybody 8 for the last three years before I decided to run again, 9 every day would ask me a dozen times a day are you going 10 to run again. Which is why in your lawsuit you have the 11 word if so many times, if you actually wanted to 12 highlight it you could find the word if. You say Jeff 13 Hansel said, you know, if Dino doesn't run and others 14 say if Dino runs. It's because every time I was asked 15 that question I was very honest in saying first off to 16 make sure it's right for my family and then we have to 17 make sure if it makes sense to do. And so if there was 18 any context of anybody asking that question anywhere, 19 public or private, me saying I was running for governor 20 never happened. 21 Q. Right, but is it safe to say that you were 22 confident that if you decided to run, the BIAW would 23 support you? 24 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 25 question insofar as you use the term confident and also 137 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 you're mischaracterizing testimony. 3 4 MR. MAGUIRE: And calls for speculation. 5 A. You know, I have no idea if they were going to 6 support me or not until you get in there. When you make 7 an announcement that you're going to run for governor 8 you have all sorts of people that are asking you every 9 single day, are you going to run again, are you going to 10 run again, I sure you run again, it happens day after 11 day after day especially when I say I ma. 2004. You 12 make the announcement and you look over your shoulder 13 and see if anybody is with you. Have you ever run for 14 office before? 15 Q. No. 16 A. Hopefully some day you will. 17 Q. And do you consider yourself a small business 18 candidate? 19 A. A small business candidate? 20 Q. Yeah. 21 A. I'm a small businessman that supports small 22 business candidates, you bet. I've always been 23 supportive of small business candidates. 24 Q. Did you know that Joe Schwab was on the 25 executive committee of the BIAW? 138 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I believe that he was part of the leadership. 3 I don't know what his title was, though. 4 Q. And did you talk to Joe Schwab about the BIAW 5 having a strong program for funding electoral 6 activities? 7 A. To fund -- to be involved in support of small 8 business candidates across the state, sure. 9 Q. And with John day, the minutes that I know you 10 have seen state that you reiterated that he claimed, he 11 reported in the minutes that he reiterated to you, Dino 12 Rossi, the board's sentiment that it was too early and 13 there are building issues to address. Do you recall any 14 of those details of that conversation? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 16 question. It's a convoluted question, it's a compound 17 question, it's poorly worded, and if you can identify 18 the minutes that you're referring to maybe that would 19 help. 20 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'll just ask you if you can 21 answer that. 22 A. Which minutes? Do you have it? 23 Q. The May 21, 2007 minutes. Have you taken a 24 look at those prior to today? 25 A. Was I supposed to have it committed to memory? 139 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Can I see it? 3 Q. Have you looked at them in preparing for this 4 deposition or prior to the deposition? 5 A. I had one hour because the judge told us we 6 had to come in here beforehand to sit down with my 7 lawyer. I haven't had hours and hours to prepare like 8 you have. 9 MR. PATTERSON: Why don't we take a break at 10 this point in time. 11 MR. WITHEY: We're in the middle of a 12 question. As soon as we're done. 13 MR. PATTERSON: Right after this question. 14 MR. LOWNEY: At the end of this line of 15 questioning we can definitely take a break. 16 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So if you take a look down -- 17 I've given you what's been marked as -- 18 A. You haven't highlighted anything so. 19 Q. I can give you a highlighted version. Just 20 looking at the last paragraph on the first page where 21 they're talking about -- I'm going to read it to you, 22 the key passages. 23 Doug moved in to discussion regarding the 24 request from BIAW to use excess money from the ROII 25 refund to fund the BIAW's war chest, and it goes down a 140 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 little bit. Doug, Joe and John reported that they had 3 received a call from Dino Rossi. John stated that he 4 reiterated the board's sentiment to Rossi stating that 5 it was too early and the association had building issues 6 that needed to be resolved. Doug indicated he would 7 call Daimon and let him know that the MBA has taken no 8 action, though it doesn't mean that the board won't take 9 action later. September would be a good time to make a 10 decision. 11 Do those minutes accurately reflect your 12 recollection of the conversations you had with those 13 three? 14 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 15 question. This doesn't relate to the conversation that 16 he had with the three. It's not intended to be a 17 reflection or even a recordation -- 18 MR. LOWNEY: Your objection is noted if the -- 19 MR. PATTERSON: No, but if he mischaracterizes 20 the testimony here. 21 MR. LOWNEY: Mr. Patterson, I'm going to tell 22 you and I've told you before that we are going -- we do 23 not want to have to interfere with Mr. Rossi, his 24 campaign schedule only more than is necessary, and you 25 taking up over half the time of this deposition on 141 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 speaking -- improper speaking objections is going to 3 make that more and more likely. 4 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, my objections 5 are not improper. Number two, I find your statement to 6 be very disingenuious, because it has been your 7 intention and the people in the Democratic party going 8 all the way up the chain to interrupt his flow and his 9 campaign. 10 MR. LOWNEY: Could you read back the last 11 question, please. 12 (The Reporter read back as requested.) 13 A. When they talk about building issues, it's 14 part about the relationship back with the group between 15 the BIAW and the Seattle Master Builders, I imagine 16 that's what they're doing here with that conversation. 17 And they were not interested in trying to smooth that 18 over at that point in time. They were pretty furious. 19 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) So who told you that they 20 were furious, which of these three officers? 21 A. I don't recall which one, but they all had 22 about the same story. 23 Q. That they felt like they were being imposed 24 upon by -- and told what to do as opposed to being 25 asked, would that be correct? 142 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 3 question. 4 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Calls for 5 speculation. 6 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is that what they told you? 7 MR. PATTERSON: Told you what? But he says is 8 that what they told you. 9 MR. WITHEY: Can he answer the question? You 10 keep asking us. You can't ask us questions. 11 MR. PATTERSON: I need a clarification as to 12 told you what? Related to the previous answer? 13 MR. WITHEY: If he doesn't understand, he can 14 say that, Mike. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey, Mr. Withey, we're 16 going to have one party objecting here, and if I don't 17 understand the context of the question, I can't 18 appropriately object. I'm asking for a clarification. 19 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did John day, and do you 20 recall John day telling you that it was too early for 21 the MBA to make a contribution to the BIAW for electoral 22 activities as of that time you talked with him? 23 A. I don't recall him saying that. What I recall 24 is that they were still upset with the fact that Daimon 25 Doyle said you will participate with us and they said we 143 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 don't have to do what you say, and that they felt 3 that -- and as it's explained, they have different world 4 they live in. The Seattle Master Builders live in a 5 very -- you know, in your county, a very Democratic 6 leaning county and they have to deal in those political 7 realities, where BIAW serves most of the state which 8 doesn't have the same concerns. 9 Q. Right. 10 A. And so they felt that they are very different 11 and very separate, distinct, and they didn't have to do 12 what Daimon Doyle said. 13 Q. Right. 14 MR. PATTERSON: Can we take a break? 15 MR. LOWNEY: Yes. 16 MR. PATTERSON: Thank you. 17 (Discussion off the record.) 18 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Withey just said just fuck 19 the shot -- or he just said shut the fuck up. That's 20 what he just said to me. I think it's consistent with 21 the demeanor that you've exposed here in this -- is that 22 what he said, Mr. Lowney. 23 MR. WITHEY: You're not questioning anybody 24 here, Mike. 25 MR. LOWNEY: I will put on the record that you 144 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 were being extremely inappropriate for the last three 3 hours, and -- 4 MR. PATTERSON: The record will reflect what 5 it is. And by the way, save -- 6 MR. LOWNEY: Ultimately, the judge will 7 decide. 8 MR. PATTERSON: Save the tapes too, I'm asking 9 the court reporter to save the tapes but I do want you 10 to record that. If anybody had a different 11 interpretation of what he just told me off the record, 12 speak up for now. 13 MR. LOWNEY: And you can leave this on the 14 record too, that we're asking that these tapes not only 15 be saved that they be made publicly available. 16 MR. PATTERSON: That's up to the judge. 17 MR. WITHEY: You don't agree with that? 18 MR. LOWNEY: You don't to it that? 19 MR. PATTERSON: That's up the to judge. 20 MR. WITHEY: Are you saying -- 21 MR. LOWNEY: No, we can stipulate to it. If 22 it's okay with you we'd like to -- 23 MR. PATTERSON: I'm not a party to this 24 litigation. You've got to talk to buy. 25 MR. WITHEY: So BIAW agrees and you don't mind 145 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 then; correct. 3 MR. PATTERSON: It's their litigation, not 4 mine. 5 MR. LOWNEY: So you're saying you don't mind? 6 MR. PATTERSON: I'm not being deposed here. 7 MR. MAGUIRE: Are we now off the record? 8 (Recess taken.) 9 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) If we could go back on the 10 record. We are back on the record. So you believed 11 that it would be better for all the associations and 12 BIAW to coordinate on their political support for 13 candidates rather than going it alone; is that correct? 14 A. No. What I said is I think they should come 15 together, and I thought it would be good for them to 16 come together versus using a shotgun method. I was 17 supporting pro business candidates around the State of 18 Washington. 19 Q. And at the time in May your testimony is that 20 you didn't -- you hadn't decided to become a candidate; 21 correct, but if -- at that time did you feel that this 22 support would be available if you did decide to run for 23 office? 24 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form. It 25 calls for speculation. 146 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 3 MR. MAGUIRE: And I think it was asked and 4 answered. 5 A. It was. It's like I said before, is when you 6 make an announcement, you know, you make an announcement 7 and there's a lot of people that say sure, I'd like you 8 to run again and then you make an announcement and you 9 look over your shoulder and see if anybody is with you, 10 you know, and you just never know about these things. 11 So, you know, this is my fifth race, second 12 statewide, three for the state senate, so I've been 13 through this before and I understand the thinking of 14 folks that, you know, and how this works, so I don't 15 count on anything. 16 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) After you made the phone 17 calls to those three officers, did you report them to 18 anybody? Did you call Tom Mc Cabe back and tell him 19 that you made the calls? 20 A. I don't recall. 21 Q. Did you make any notes about the calls? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Were they all made on the same day -- 24 A. You can see I'm not much of a note taker. 25 Q. Were they all made on the same day or 147 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 different days, do you recall? 3 A. I don't recall. 4 Q. Did you ever learn whether MBA had decided to 5 join up with the BIAW on this effort or not? 6 A. In the end I left it, that was it. I don't 7 know if they ended up -- what they ended up with 8 participating with or coming together or not. In the 9 end I speculate the rift was strong enough to where they 10 didn't. 11 Q. And your impression of the rift was based upon 12 both your conversations with Tom Mc Cabe and the local 13 officers; is that correct? 14 A. With both sides. 15 Q. Yeah. 16 A. In hearing the argument. 17 Q. And so were you ever informed that the MBA 18 chose to set aside a half a million dollars for the 19 governor's race in 2008? 20 A. That I don't know about. 21 Q. If they had done so would you believe that 22 your calls may have encouraged that decision? 23 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 24 question insofar as your use of the term if and may. 25 Calls for speculation. This is a fact witness and he's 148 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 already indicated he didn't have any knowledge of it. 3 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can still answer, if you 4 can. 5 A. I don't know what they were doing or how they 6 were doing it. I don't know the internal workings of 7 their financial situation. The whole point was is to 8 support pro business candidates across the State of 9 Washington. At that point in time, like I said before, 10 I was 75 percent sure I would never be running for 11 office again, and ask me on Tuesday whether I was right 12 or not. 13 Q. So is it -- you said you did not -- well, I 14 can't remember exactly what you said, but let's focus on 15 the Master Builders Association of Pierce County for a 16 minute. They also were having trouble coming together 17 with the BIAW. 18 Did you make any calls to any staff or 19 officers or board members for the Master Builders 20 Association of Pierce County? 21 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the preamble. 22 And the question is the latter; is that correct? 23 MR. LOWNEY: That's right. 24 25 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Lack of foundation 149 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 as to who all the officers and members are. 3 A. Can you rephrase that? 4 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let me do it. Do you recall 5 in the course of these sort of three months around 6 April, May 2007 making any calls to anybody at Pierce 7 County Master Builders Association? 8 A. I don't recall doing that. 9 Q. Okay. Do you recall going there in person for 10 a meeting? 11 A. I don't recall that. I gave a speech there. 12 Q. Oh, you did give a speech there. When was 13 that? 14 A. I don't recall when it was but I know it 15 was -- I guess it was actually after I was a candidate. 16 Q. Okay. I'm going to hand you what has been 17 marked as Exhibit 25. I'd ask you to sort of take a 18 look through here, and what I'm going to ask you after 19 you get a chance to look through is whether you recall 20 making any calls or having any contacts with any of 21 these organizations or officers in the time period 22 around -- in the sort of three months give or take May 23 of 2007. 24 MR. PATTERSON: You've got a -- just for the 25 record, we've got one, two, three, four double side 150 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 pages with, I can't speculate how many names are on here 3 but you want him to take the time to go through this? 4 A. You've got about 25 names per page and you 5 have two, four, six, eight pages of just sheer names. 6 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. 7 MR. PATTERSON: Do you want him to take the 8 time to do it? 9 MR. LOWNEY: Yeah. 10 A. And what's your question about it? During 11 that time period around May did I talk to any of these 12 people? 13 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Three months give or take 14 prior to when you announced for governor whether you 15 initiated any contacts with these organizations or these 16 people. 17 MR. PATTERSON: In the timeframe of March, 18 April, May '07; is that correct? 19 MR. LOWNEY: March, April, May, June and July, 20 around then, '07. 21 A. I don't know a lot of these people by name, I 22 know their face. I don't know them by name. There's 23 some that -- and I don't know when the time was though, 24 and I don't know if it was in that window where I did -- 25 I was asked to do an installation for somebody who 151 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 became president, I think it was like in the Yakima 3 area. It was eastern Washington. I can't remember -- I 4 honestly can't remember the name though. I don't know 5 any of those people. I mean, other than the ones we 6 talked about, John day, I mean, I recognize those, Doug 7 barns. 8 MR. PATTERSON: You're asking about 9 individuals outside of that, what you've already asked 10 about; is that correct? 11 MR. LOWNEY: Correct. 12 A. I'd say 95 percent of these names I don't 13 recognize, first off. And I have no memorable 14 conversation with any of these folks that I can think of 15 within the timeframe you're talking about. 16 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And as you read through this, 17 did you note the names of these local affiliates or some 18 of them are familiar to you and some of them are not, I 19 assume? 20 A. Yeah. The -- 21 MR. PATTERSON: Let me object to the term 22 affiliates. I'm not sure the witness understands that 23 concept. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) The names of the 25 organizations on this. Well, let me ask you this. Do 152 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 you recall making any contacts that you initiated with 3 any of these organizations in this time period? 4 A. In this time period I gave speeches to various 5 groups, rotaries, chambers, associations about -- on 6 behalf of the Forward Washington Foundation about 7 improving the business climate in the state of 8 Washington for small and medium-sized business. Just 9 like I did at the lunch you referred to in Semiahmoo. 10 It's the same PowerPoint presentation I gave all across 11 the state. There are some of these I'm sure I probably 12 gave PowerPoint presentation to. But I've given like I 13 said, thousands of speeches over the last couple years. 14 Q. Did Tom Mc Cabe ask you to call anybody other 15 than the three names that we already talked about? 16 A. No, not that I recall. 17 Q. So he only asked you to call those three 18 people but nobody else affiliated with the BIAW? 19 A. Not that I recall. 20 Q. Ever? 21 A. Not that -- 22 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. 23 A. I've said that about four times. 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Did anyone else at BIAW ask 25 you to make phone calls to other affiliates or their 153 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 officers or staff? 3 A. Not that I recall. 4 Q. Do you think that's something that you would 5 recall? 6 A. If it were some memorable event I probably 7 would recall it, but I wasn't a candidate at the time 8 and I was about 75 percent sure I would never be running 9 for office again. It doesn't slow down my support for 10 small business candidates across this state, and that's 11 really what we're talking about here. 12 Q. And then did you ask the Sam Anderson and some 13 of the officers from MBA to go to lunch with you in 14 approximately I believe June? 15 A. Yeah, I had -- 16 MR. PATTERSON: Of '07? 17 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) June of '07. 18 A. I'm not sure what the time was but it was part 19 of trying to put them back together again with John day 20 and Joe Schwab. 21 Q. Uh-huh. So it was the same sort of general 22 dispute issues as you've testified to previously? 23 A. Yeah. That's where I got the full information 24 as to why they were upset. 25 Q. And did anyone at BIAW know that you were 154 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 going on that lunch? 3 A. I'm not aware. I'm not sure. 4 Q. Did you ask these people you had lunch with 5 whether they would support your candidacy for governor 6 in 2008? 7 A. No, because there was no candidacy for 8 governor in 2008. Like I said -- 9 Q. Potential. 10 A. There was no potential. At that point I was 11 more likely not to run than to run. The whole point was 12 to bring -- to try to smooth over the ruffled feathers 13 that had occurred when Daimon Doyle told them what they 14 were going to do and they said we don't have to do what 15 you say we're going to do. 16 Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as 17 Exhibit 33, and I'll just read that fourth paragraph 18 there. This is a chair officer's meeting, June 18, 19 2007. It says Monday, the 25th, Doug dawn and Sam 20 planned to have lunch with Dino Rossi at the Bellevue 21 club. Dino is trying to decide whether he wants to be a 22 candidate for governor and wants to know what kind of 23 support he will have. 24 Does this accurately reflect what you said 25 when you asked these individuals to lunch? 155 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. No, it doesn't. 3 MR. PATTERSON: I'll note my objection as to 4 the mischaracterization. Go ahead. 5 A. That's not what I said. And that isn't 6 accurate. When I asked them to lunch we were talking 7 about them being involved with BIAW and being involved 8 in supporting candidates across this state. 9 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Because -- so your focus in 10 the lunch was sort of like the focus of your phone calls 11 which was trying to patch the MBA and the BIAW up in 12 their political efforts to support small business 13 candidates? 14 A. I wasn't a candidate for governor at that 15 point in time, and like I said, I was about 75 percent 16 sure I wouldn't run. Because of the stress on the 17 family and how difficult it is to run for office 18 statewide. We were five months away from making that 19 decision before I -- whether I'd really run again or 20 not, but in the end it ended up being in October 11th 21 was the date. And so, yeah. 22 Q. And so at that time, just to repeat my 23 question, you were focused at that lunch on the question 24 of whether or not MBA would participate with BIAW and 25 the other local BIAW affiliates in their political 156 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 efforts; is that correct? 3 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Asked and 4 answered. 5 6 MR. MAGUIRE: Mischaracterizes the previous 7 testimony. 8 A. What I did was try to bring them together so 9 that they would support pro small business candidates in 10 the state and fully hear out what the problems were 11 between the two. In the end, in the end they were -- it 12 looked like there was quite a rift in this effort 13 because of the issue between Daimon Doyle and these 14 folks, Joe and John. 15 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And during this conversation 16 at lunch, did you at that point learn that the -- that 17 Daimon Doyle had asked the MBA for a contribution for 18 their electoral activities? 19 MR. PATTERSON: Objection as to 20 characterization of what the testimony is. Go ahead. 21 A. What I know is that Daimon said you will 22 participate with us, and they said we don't have to 23 participate with you. Financial or otherwise they don't 24 have to participate. All of them together are stronger 25 than these guys separately, and that was the point I was 157 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 trying to convey to this group. I wasn't a candidate at 3 that point in time. 4 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Right, no, I understand, I'm 5 just trying to get into the details of the lunch and 6 what happened at the lunch, and specifically did you 7 talk about, for example, the MBA donating some of their 8 retrospective rating money to the BIAW as had been 9 requested of them previously by the BIAW? 10 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the 11 characterization. 12 A. I didn't talk about them specifically donating 13 any money to any group. I'm not clear on actually how 14 the BIAW raises all their money or what pots they put it 15 in or how they -- or you know, how it gets done. That 16 wasn't really my mission. My mission was to try to 17 repair a fractured relationship, was my mission in 18 sitting down and meeting with them and trying to figure 19 out what their objections were and to participating 20 fully with the BIAW. 21 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) And who made the reservation 22 for lunch? 23 A. I don't know. I think it was John day maybe, 24 I don't know. 25 Q. Do you recall who paid for lunch? 158 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I don't recall. 3 Q. Do you recall where lunch was? 4 A. Somewhere in Bellevue, because I was in 5 Bellevue at the time. 6 Q. So no one from -- affiliated with the BIAW has 7 ever explained to you how they would potentially get 8 money or contributions from their local affiliates? 9 A. I'm not aware of how they raised the money 10 they raised. I'm not privy to all the factions 11 within -- all the ways of raising money within the 12 organization. That's not ever been something I've been 13 interested in learning about so I'm sure there's many 14 ways to do whatever it is they do. 15 Q. Do you know how much money the BIAW spent in 16 the governor's race this year? 17 A. I don't know. I imagine you're going to tell 18 me. 19 Q. Nobody's told you? 20 A. I said I imagine you're going to tell me. 21 Q. No, I know, but I'm just wondering -- 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. That nobody has mentioned that to you? 24 A. All I'm trying to do is run my race for 25 governor here of Washington state, and we're focusing on 159 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 what we have to do in our campaign. What independent 3 expenditure peopole do, they do it on their own and 4 that's why they call it independent. And so how they 5 raise their money is up to them, how they spend their 6 money is up to them. I have no input into that either 7 way, and so that's how this works, I understand that. 8 That's exactly how this works. 9 Q. Did you give the BIAW any other assistance in 10 their fund raising activities or any -- I'll strike that 11 and say, did you give the BIAW any assistance in fund 12 raising for their electoral activities prior to 13 announcing as a candidate? 14 A. I don't recall doing that. 15 Q. Did you have contact with other BIAW decision 16 makers other than Tom Mc Cabe? 17 A. I don't recall. Really Tom Mc Cabe was the 18 one that called me. 19 Q. Did you ever have a meeting with Daimon Doyle? 20 A. I saw him at functions, like a function like 21 this one, like the Semiahmoo one. 22 Q. Did he ever talk to you about the support 23 of -- BIAW's support for running for office in 2008? 24 A. He like everybody across the state said I'd 25 sure like you to run again and I said you know what, I 160 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 haven't made that decision, and I've got to make sure 3 it's right for my family first before I do something 4 like this. And so BIAW cannot make that decision for me 5 as a candidate, nor can you. You know, you have to 6 check with my wife first, that's the first stop I have 7 to go. And before I become a candidate. And so we went 8 through this with a six-month investigation with the 9 PDC, we went through the fact that the phony complaint 10 filed by the state Democratic party tried to claim I was 11 a candidate before I actually became a candidate. The 12 only person that can make me a candidate is me. My wife 13 running around saying I'm a candidate still doesn't make 14 any a candidate. You can talk to the press all day long 15 saying I'm a candidate and that doesn't make my 16 candidate. 17 Q. Did you have contact with anybody, prior to 18 announcing your candidacy, did you talk with anybody at 19 the BIAW about what it would take for a Republican 20 candidate to win in 2008? 21 A. I don't recall, I don't recall that. You 22 know, I know what it would take, it would take more than 23 what we had last time. We were out spent by well over a 24 million dollars by special interest groups and the like. 25 Well, probably more like $3 million in the end by 161 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 special interest groups working for Christine Gregoire, 3 many of which are working for her again this time and 4 are, you know, behind things like this phony lawsuit. 5 Q. And do you -- did you have any conversations 6 about your opinions on what it would take to win with 7 anyone at BIAW that you recall? 8 A. I don't recall that. 9 Q. Do you remember -- do you recall having any 10 conversations like that since you announced for 11 governor? 12 A. I don't recall having those conversations with 13 anybody at BIAW about what it takes to do this race 14 since I've been a candidate for governor which started 15 on October 11, 2007. 16 Q. And have you had other conversations with 17 folks at the BIAW about your run for governor since you 18 announced? 19 A. I don't understand. I mean, who at BIAW? 20 Q. I'm asking you what conversations you've had. 21 A. Give me a name. 22 Q. I don't know all the people at BIAW. 23 A. Tom Mc Cabe, no. 24 Q. But I think if you met them you would be able 25 to tell me? 162 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. How many members does BIAW? 13,500. 3 Q. Decision makers, officers. 4 A. That's why I'm asking you to be specific about 5 this. 6 Q. Thank you for the clarification. 7 A. Because there are plenty of people out there 8 who are members of BIAW who are out there all the time 9 that you bump into. 10 Q. Certainly? 11 A. People I don't know personally. No, actually 12 I haven't picked up the phone and talked to anybody, 13 nobody has picked up the phone and talked to me about 14 what is going on with their independent expenditures, 15 and because they wouldn't be independent then and that 16 wouldn't be legal now, would it? 17 Q. And what about any of your consultants or your 18 staff? Are you aware of any of your consultants or 19 staff having discussions with the BIAW? 20 A. About what? 21 Q. About your election campaign or the governor's 22 race? 23 A. I'm not aware. 24 Q. Have you taken steps within your campaign to 25 make sure that such coordination does not occur? 163 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. My campaign staff knows that you can't 3 coordinate with an independent expenditure because that 4 wouldn't be legal, and which is why we don't coordinate 5 with people who do independent expenditures, which is 6 also why independent expenditures are dangerous things 7 in a campaign because sometimes your own team can 8 torpedo you with putting up an ad that you probably 9 didn't want up there and causing a candidate more 10 trouble than it's worth. 11 Q. And that prohibition on coordination was 12 triggered when you declared yourself a candidate; is 13 that correct? 14 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 15 question. 16 A. I don't understand what you mean. 17 MR. PATTERSON: Mischaracterizes his 18 testimony. 19 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Is it your belief that the 20 prohibition on coordination was triggered when you 21 declared yourself a candidate? 22 A. Yeah, and coordination, define coordination. 23 Q. Coordination under 42.17, the Fair Campaign 24 Practices Act, the coordination that we've been talking 25 about. 164 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I don't have that committed to memory. What 3 does that mean? You're the lawyer here. 4 Q. Yeah, the type of coordination we've been 5 talking about. I'm not talking about the nuances of 6 that coordination prohibition, I'm talking about your 7 understanding of when that prohibition comes into 8 effect. 9 A. I want to know what your definition of 10 coordination is before I answer the question. 11 Q. I'm afraid I can't give you a lesson on that. 12 A. Why can't you? Just give me what the law is. 13 You know the law, I'm not a lawyer, you are. 14 Q. The way that you have just described the 15 prohibition. I think that you previously said you 16 couldn't coordinate because that would be against the 17 rules. 18 A. You can't tell them what ads to run, you can't 19 tell them what ads you can't run. Is that what you call 20 the coordination? 21 Q. Sure, whatever you believe it is? 22 A. Is that the definition? Let's say it is for 23 the purpose of this coordination. 24 A. Let's not say this is the definition of 25 coordination. 165 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. Among other things that definition of 3 prohibition that you described is I believe -- 4 A. Among the other things? What are the other 5 things? 6 Q. I'm afraid I can't give a lesson? 7 A. I'm supposed to be able to tell you? I'm not 8 a lawyer. 9 Q. I'm not asking you about your understanding 10 what the prohibition is. Let's say for a second we're 11 talking about the prohibition on what you just 12 described, that coordination. When does it come into 13 being? 14 A. So if I go talk to a BIAW member and they say 15 how is the campaign going and I say it's going great, is 16 that coordination? They look like the campaign is on 17 track and somehow that's coordinating. 18 Q. I have a question for you. Were you able to 19 answer it? 20 MR. PATTERSON: But he's asked you to define 21 coordination. 22 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Well, I have a feeling you'll 23 have an opportunity to have a conversation about that 24 with your attorney after the deposition but right now 25 I'm trying to take a deposition and I'm asking you a 166 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 question that -- 3 A. For a word that I don't know the definition to 4 and you want me to answer it? But I tell you, I did not 5 coordinate as far as nobody that I know of has 6 coordinated with BIAW and said that you should run 7 certain ads or not run certain ads. I have no knowledge 8 of that whatsoever, and I don't believe that would have 9 happened. I certainly didn't do anything like that. 10 But if your coordination definition goes beyond that, I 11 don't know what it is, which is what I'm asking you to 12 define. How difficult is that? 13 Q. And that prohibition that you just described, 14 it's your position that that comes into effect when you 15 announce yourself for -- as a candidate; is that 16 correct? 17 MR. PATTERSON: No, objection. He didn't 18 state that. It's a mischaracterization. 19 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm asking. 20 A. And normally I would consult with my attorney 21 on something like this when it comes to the coordination 22 pieces, and the idea that you can coordinate with a 23 group outside your campaign that's running independent 24 expenditure, you can't do that. I mean, as far as the 25 coordination of running ads or not running ads. 167 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. Have you shared -- have you or your campaign 3 shared non-public information with the BIAW? 4 A. Not that I know of. 5 Q. If they -- have your campaign staff visited 6 BIAW headquarters in the past six months that you know 7 of? 8 9 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Lack of foundation. 10 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Vague. 11 A. I'm out in the campaign trail 12 to 16 hours a 12 day. I don't know that anybody's visited the 13 headquarters -- campaign, BIAW's campaign headquarters, 14 is that what you said? 15 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) BIAW's headquarters. 16 A. In Olympia? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. That I don't know. 19 Q. Have you had BIAW staff visit your 20 headquarters? 21 A. Well, in the times I've been in the 22 headquarters I've never seen anybody from BIAW. 23 Q. And you haven't heard about it, such a 24 meeting? 25 A. No, I haven't heard about such a thing either. 168 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: One second here. 3 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to hand you what 4 has been marked as Exhibit 13. If I could direct you -- 5 I gave you the whole thing, and I'm going to direct your 6 attention if I might to the relevant portions of this? 7 A. What is this? 8 Q. This is the executive committee meetings from 9 February 27, 2006. And I'm -- 10 MR. PATTERSON: February 22, it looks like. 11 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Excuse me, February 22, 2006. 12 If you could turn your attention to Page 15, I know 13 you'll want to glance through this and that's fine, I'll 14 tell you I'm not going to ask you anything other than 15 where it starts talking at the bottom of page 14. And 16 specifically at the bottom of Page 15, pat Mc bride, it 17 says pat Mc bride clarified what had taken place. He 18 said his understanding was that Dino Rossi approached 19 BIAW when he had a debt of $2 million, and we said not 20 yet. Dino went back and found all but 235,000 and now 21 Dino has come back and asked for help again. 22 And I'm wondering if that refreshes your 23 recollection about whether you asked the BIAW for $2 24 million to pay off your legal fees. 25 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Outside the scope. 169 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. 3 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You can answer that. 4 A. Well, I don't recall asking them for $2 5 million, and it wasn't my debt, it was the state party's 6 debt. The state party was the main driver behind the 7 lawsuit for the election contest in Wenatchee. In fact, 8 I never even was in Wenatchee during that lawsuit. I 9 didn't show up, I didn't have to testify or anything in 10 that lawsuit. And so asking for help for the state 11 party was what this is actually I think referring to. 12 But I didn't ask for 2 million that I know of. 13 Q. And at the bottom of page 14 it talked about 14 that the original amount of the legal debt had been 15 work, quote, worked down through contributions and 16 efforts of BIAW staff working with the legal firms to 17 write off amounts. 18 Were you familiar that BIAW was negotiating 19 with your legal team over the -- 20 A. State party? 21 Q. Over the legal fees that were incurred in your 22 lawsuit? 23 24 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Mischaracterizes 25 evidence, mischaracterizes the facts. Didn't happen. 170 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Calls for speculation, lack of foundation, outside the 3 scope. 4 A. So what happened is the state party brought 5 the election contest lawsuit, and then there was a bill 6 that was owed. What people did to raise money for it 7 from the state party level or what BIAW did on their own 8 I'm not aware of what all the things that may have 9 happened there. 10 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Okay. But you do agree that 11 you made these -- you don't recall the amounts but you 12 do recall making these requests to BIAW to make these 13 payments; is that correct? 14 A. I asked BIAW to help the state party out 15 financially, yes. 16 Q. And here on the very top of Page 15 they 17 suggest that they're making this contribution because 18 there was an understanding that Rossi was still BIAW's 19 best chance in 2008 to take back the governor's house 20 with someone who is friendly to the building community. 21 Hansel said there were numerous comments and commitments 22 to make sure that BIAW move forward to create a strategy 23 and fund. 24 Now, when you asked the BIAW -- 25 MR. PATTERSON: Was there a question in that? 171 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 I move to strike. 3 MR. LOWNEY: I'm asking. I'm just reading the 4 evidence and then I'm going to ask you a question about 5 it. 6 MR. PATTERSON: That's not the evidence. 7 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) It is what this piece of 8 evidence which is the BIAW's executive committee meeting 9 minutes states. And what I read to you -- 10 MR. PATTERSON: Mr. Rossi was not present nor 11 does it indicate he was present. 12 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I know. My question is, when 13 you asked the BIAW to assist the state party in paying 14 off this legal debt, did you suggest that that would 15 assist you in beginning your campaign for governor in 16 2008? 17 A. No. I was not a candidate for governor. And 18 as I'm sure Mr. Hansel and anybody else will tell you, 19 when they asked me if I was going to run again for 20 governor I told them that it depended on was it right 21 for my family, is it the right thing to do. And at this 22 point in time, this is even before the other -- it was 23 like a year and a half before the other conversations. 24 And just coming off this last election in '04 and after 25 the election contest, the likelihood of me running was 172 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 probably even less than the 75 percent negative that I 3 had before. So what they characterize in minutes is 4 what they characterize in minutes but it doesn't mean 5 that's what I said. 6 MR. PATTERSON: Are you going to allow BIAW 7 some time? 8 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) When the conversation 9 happened over these particular contributions towards the 10 legal fund, towards paying off the legal debt, was there 11 any conversation that you recall about keeping the 12 payments secret? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Is this something that you felt like should be 15 kept secret at the time? 16 A. I don't know anything about that. I don't 17 know what you're talking about. 18 Q. The fact that the BIAW -- the fact that you 19 had asked BIAW for money to pay off your legal debt, was 20 that something that you wanted to keep secret? 21 22 MR. MAGUIRE: Objection. Mischaracterizes 23 his testimony, mischaracterizes the evidence. 24 MR. PATTERSON: Same objection. Totally 25 mischaracterizes the testimony and this is the third 173 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 time he's answered and he's already indicated no. 3 A. It's also the fact that you keep saying it's 4 my debt. It was the state party's debt. 5 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Paying off the debt. 6 A. The state party's debt. 7 Q. Okay, the state party's debt. 8 A. Thank you. 9 Q. And my question was -- well, I think you said 10 it. So you didn't feel -- 11 A. No, I didn't say -- ask the question properly 12 with the state party involved in the question. 13 Q. That is sort of a question of law, I suppose, 14 but I guess my question was, did you suggest to the BIAW 15 that they should take steps to keep your solicitation of 16 them or their payment for this legal debt secret? 17 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 18 question. Mischaracterizes his testimony, it's a 19 compound question, and -- 20 A. I thought I already answered it. 21 MR. PATTERSON: Misleading. Go ahead. 22 A. I said no. 23 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I'm going to hand you what's 24 been marked as 15. 25 A. What is it? 174 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. This is the Board of Directors meeting minutes 3 from that same date where the board now is deciding to 4 pay money towards these legal fees, and I'll just point 5 your attention to -- do you know who Lyle Fox was? Do 6 you know Lyle Fox? 7 MR. PATTERSON: What page are you referring 8 to? 9 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) This is on page 12. There's 10 a couple -- 11 A. Where are you? 12 Q. Where it says about halfway up, Jeff Hansel, 13 Dino Rossi. Hansel said Dino had gone to Hansel and 14 requested help in retiring the lawsuit debt Dino was 15 saddled with a huge debt and was seeking BIAW's help. 16 Hansel indicated to Dino that BIAW would consider as 17 long as he continued to work hard in getting the debt 18 retired. The amount started at 2 million and was worked 19 down considerably. Dino was in need of help to avoid 20 litigation and negative PR. And then it goes on to say, 21 the funds would be paid directly to the law firm. 22 MR. PATTERSON: Can you ask the question? I 23 mean, this is -- 24 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) You just asked me where I was 25 talking about. My question was is do you know who Lyle 175 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Fox is? 3 MR. PATTERSON: I move to strike. 4 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) My question is do you know 5 who Lyle Fox is. I don't think you can strike my 6 question. 7 MR. PATTERSON: It wasn't a question, it was a 8 media statement I guess. 9 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) My question is do you know 10 who Lyle Fox is? 11 A. I have met him before. 12 Q. Who is he? 13 A. He's a builder. 14 Q. So on page 13 there's a statement that says 15 fox asked that the Dino Rossi request for help be kept 16 quiet in an effort to protect Rossi from any bad 17 publicity. 18 So is it your testimony that you didn't ask 19 them to keep this quiet? 20 A. No, I don't know why you would. Why would you 21 keep it quiet? And the other piece of this too is it 22 says what you just read into the record, Dino Rossi was 23 saddled with a debt. I wasn't saddled with a debt, the 24 state party was saddled with a debt. So this is a 25 characterization of someone's minutes of a conversations 176 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 about the state party's debt, and so to characterize it 3 as my debt I think is a mischaracterization in the first 4 place. And the idea here, I don't know why the state 5 party would want to hide a -- they would want to hide a 6 contribution from anybody. 7 Q. Well, let me ask you this. 8 MR. PATTERSON: And for the record, in this 9 exhibit there's no indication that Mr. Rossi was in 10 attendance at this meeting. 11 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) Let me ask you this question. 12 Why would the money, the contribution from the BIAW be 13 paid directly to the law firm other than to avoid a 14 paper trail? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. That calls for 16 rank speculation. 17 Q. (BY MR. LOWNEY) I know, I'm asking, are there 18 any other reasons that you could think of why the 19 transaction would go down that way other than to make 20 sure that there's no report that's filed with the PDC on 21 that? 22 MR. PATTERSON: That's argumentative, calls 23 for speculation. I'm going to advise him not to answer 24 that question. 25 MR. MAGUIRE: We're way outside the scope. 177 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 We're now talking about issues that have nothing to do 3 with the O A election. I have some questions for 4 Mr. Rossi and it's 2:55 and that's the time that we 5 alerted the judge that we're available. We're either 6 going to call the judge or I get a chance to ask my 7 questions. 8 MR. WITHEY: Let me just for the record we're 9 going to allow the BIAW to ask questions. Mr. Patterson 10 will have questions. We reserve the right to ask the 11 Court to order this deposition reconvened if the Court 12 so rules. 13 MR. LOWNEY: Because I mean, basically what I 14 think just to clarify that it is 2:55, it is time, if 15 this is ending at 3:00, that we should turn it over, but 16 we also feel that we have not gotten the opportunity to 17 get through our materials because of the improper 18 objections. As we see it. 19 MR. PATTERSON: You know what, he has rights, 20 and let me just for the record, you had a full ream of 21 questions and you have gone through all those questions. 22 MR. LOWNEY: I did not. 23 MR. PATTERSON: You turned page per page per 24 page. 25 MR. LOWNEY: Yeah, turning them because I no 178 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 longer have time because of your objections. 3 MR. WITHEY: Let's let's BIAW ask some 4 questions. 5 EXAMINATION 6 7 BY MR. MAGUIRE: 8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Rossi. Earlier Mr. Withey and 9 Mr. Lowney were asking you a lot of questions about BIAW 10 and they were throwing around some terms, BIAW and BIAW 11 MSC or member services corporation. Do you have any 12 familiarity with the structure of BIAW or any of its 13 associated entities? 14 A. I really don't. I don't know what MSC is, how 15 that works. 16 Q. So when you were being questioned by 17 plaintiff's counsel earlier today about BIAW, do you 18 have any idea whether they were referring to a 19 non-profit political action committee or a local 20 association? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Earlier you testified that you became a 23 candidate for governor for the 2008 governor's race in 24 October 11, 2007; is that right? 25 A. Right. 179 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. When did you first communicate that decision 3 to anyone? 4 A. My wife and I made that decision that morning, 5 and then it was that day on the 11th, which once you say 6 it publicly or even privately, honestly, if you say it 7 privately you still that clock starts ticking, as I 8 understand it, 14 days. So I had 14 days to try to do 9 something, get moving. 10 Q. So prior to October 11, 2007, did you ever 11 tell any BIAW officer or director or staff member that 12 you intended to run for governor in 2008? 13 A. No. 14 Q. What did you tell them about your intentions, 15 if anything? 16 A. That it had to be right for my family first 17 and it's difficult to run for public office, let alone 18 run for governor and that you end up being subject to, 19 you know, all sorts of issues and smears and the like, 20 just like this phony lawsuit we're here about today. 21 Q. Before October 11, 2007, did BIAW or any of 22 the groups that you know to be affiliated or associated 23 with the BIAW ask for your consent to receive 24 contributions on your behalf with the intent to promote 25 your candidacy? 180 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. Absolutely not because there was no candidacy. 3 Q. And so that means you didn't consent to any 4 such thing? 5 A. No, I did not. 6 Q. Before October 11, 2007, did BIAW or any of 7 the entities you know to be associated with BIAW ask for 8 your consent to make expenditures on your behalf for the 9 intent to promote your candidacy? 10 A. No. 11 MR. LOWNEY: I'm going to object because it 12 calls for a legal conclusion. 13 Q. (BY MR. MAGUIRE) Did you consent to any such 14 expenditures to be made on your behalf with the intent 15 to promote your candidacy? 16 A. No, I did not. 17 Q. Before October 11, 2007, did BIAW or any of 18 the entities that you know of that are related to BIAW 19 ask for your consent to purchase commercial advertising 20 space for broadcast time to promote your candidacy? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Didn't consent to that? 23 A. Didn't consent to that either. 24 Q. Prior to October 11, 2007 did BIAW or any of 25 the groups that you know to be associated with BIAW ask 181 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 for your consent to promote your election as governor in 3 2008? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So you didn't consent to any such thing? 6 A. Didn't consent to that. 7 Q. Since January 1, 2007, has BIAW or any of 8 these entities that you know to be associated with BIAW 9 ever asked for your approval or encouragement to make an 10 expenditure for any political advertising opposing 11 Christine Gregoire or supporting your candidacy? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Have you ever given approval or encouragement 14 to them? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Have you ever collaborated with BIAW or any of 17 the entities that you know to be associated with BIAW 18 for the purpose of making an expenditure for any 19 political advertising supporting your candidacy or 20 promoting the defeat of Christine Gregoire? 21 A. No. 22 MR. MAGUIRE: Thank you, Mr. Rossi. I think 23 those are all the questions I have for you today. I 24 appreciate your patience. 25 182 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 EXAMINATION 3 4 BY MR. PATTERSON: 5 Q. Mr. Rossi, when did you decide to run for 6 governor in 2008? 7 A. I made the decision on the 11th of October of 8 2007. 9 Q. When did you publicly announce you were a 10 candidate for governor in 2008? 11 A. Public announcement was on the 25th of October 12 2007. 13 Q. When did you first ask for campaign 14 contributions for your run for governor in 2008? 15 A. It was after we made the decision on the 11th, 16 probably started on the 12th. 17 Q. When did you first accept any campaign 18 contributions for and on behalf of your campaign for 19 governor in 2008? 20 A. I would imagine that I believe it was the 12th 21 of 2007. 22 Q. Now, there was previous litigation, was there 23 not, as to whether or not you were a candidate prior to 24 your announcement; is that correct? 25 A. We had a complaint, a phoney complaint filed 183 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 by Christine Gregoire's political operatives about the 3 Forward Washington foundation, that somehow I was a 4 candidate for office. The PDC did a six-month 5 exhaustive investigation with dozens of witnesses, and 6 they came to the conclusion that I was telling the truth 7 all along, Christine Gregoire and her political 8 operatives were not, and they said no, that I was not a 9 candidate before the 11th of October. 10 Q. Did you ever encourage BIAW at any point in 11 time to raise funds to support your candidacy? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you ever coordinate fund raising with the 14 BIAW for your candidacy? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ever approve BIAW expenditures for 17 your candidacy? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Did you ever encourage BIAW expenditures for 20 your candidacy? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Did you ever consent for BIAW to form a 23 committee to support you as a candidate? 24 A. No, I did not. 25 Q. When I'm talking about BIAW I'm talking about 184 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 any affiliates or organizations that you were connected 3 with BIAW. 4 A. I did not. 5 Q. And do you believe that you have fully 6 complied with the law as it relates to campaign 7 financing insofar as your run for governor? 8 A. Absolutely. 9 Q. Do you from time to time consult with 10 attorneys as it relates to PDC issues and campaign 11 finance issues? 12 A. Absolutely. 13 Q. And with regard to the allegations in the 14 complaint, you've had an opportunity, you've indicated 15 prior to this deposition to review the allegations in 16 the complaint, have you not? 17 A. I did. 18 Q. And do you believe insofar as the allegations 19 in the complaint insofar as attempted alleged illegal 20 activity as it relates to you are well founded? 21 A. There was actually a phoney complaint, more as 22 a political stunt. Very clearly, just like Mr. Lowney 23 did before with Mike McGavick, it was dismissed after 24 the election was over, and there seems to be a pattern 25 with Mr. Lowney. 185 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. And you obviously had other things on your 3 agenda today, correct, Mr. Rossi? 4 A. On my agenda today I had radio stations that I 5 was supposed to be involved with and talk to and TV, a 6 very large interview with a TV station. And I was 7 supposed to be speaking to the largest rotary in 8 Washington state, the Seattle rotary, Seattle four, 9 which Christine Gregoire got to speak to I believe last 10 week, and now I won't have the opportunity because they 11 only meet on Wednesdays, and it'll be after the 12 election. 13 MR. PATTERSON: I have no further questions at 14 this time. 15 16 EXAMINATION 17 18 BY MR. WITHEY: 19 Q. Just one or two follow-up areas if I could, 20 Mr. Rossi. 21 First of all, in your -- when the 22 investigation, the six-month investigation with the PDC 23 you described, were you aware whether the minutes of the 24 Master Builders Association or the BIAW that you've seen 25 in your deposition today were provided to them? 186 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I have no idea. 3 Q. And you understand that the PDC made no ruling 4 as to whether these minutes show any improper 5 coordination; correct? 6 A. I have no idea. 7 Q. If the minutes that we've described to you 8 show that Dino is trying to decide whether he wants to 9 be a candidate for governor and wants to know what kind 10 of support we will have, that information was not 11 provided to the PDC; correct? 12 A. That I don't know. 13 Q. So your testimony, though, is that the minutes 14 are false; is that right? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Objection to the form of the 16 question. He's already testified, and you're trying to 17 characterize that everything in those minutes is false I 18 think is unfair. 19 MR. WITHEY: I'll withdraw the question. 20 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) The extent to which you were 21 trying to decide what kind of support you would have in 22 June of 2007, the extent to which anybody said that, 23 they would be false; correct? 24 A. That would be false. I was about 75 percent 25 sure I would not run for governor or any office as a 187 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 candidate ever again about that point in time. 3 Q. Have you reviewed the PDC interview with Dino 4 Rossi to prepare for this deposition? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Have you ever reviewed it? 7 A. No. 8 Q. I suppose you've told them that you were 75 9 percent sure that you were not going to run at that 10 time; correct? 11 A. I don't recall. 12 Q. Can you think of any reason why you wouldn't 13 since you referred to 75 percent about fifteen or twenty 14 times? 15 MR. PATTERSON: Object to the form of the 16 question. Argumentative. 17 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) I'll withdraw it. Can you 18 think of any reason why you would not have told the PDC 19 that you were 75 percent sure you were not going to run? 20 A. I just told them I wasn't a candidate. 21 Q. Can you think of any reason you didn't tell 22 them that it was 75 percent sure you were not? 23 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. Asked and 24 answered. 25 Q. (BY MR. WITHEY) You can answer. 188 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 A. I did. 3 Q. Did you inform the PDC of any contact you had 4 with members of the Master Builders Association or 5 Mr. Mc Cabe at the BIAW in the process of their 6 investigation? 7 A. I don't recall that. 8 Q. Well, you recall that at the time of their 9 investigation those events had already taken place; 10 correct? 11 A. True. I don't recall that in the PDC. 12 Q. Can you think of any reason why you would not 13 have told the PDC that? 14 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. 15 A. I answered every question the PDC had. Just 16 as I answered every question you had here today. 17 MR. WITHEY: Well, we'll let the judge decide 18 that. For this stage I have no further -- let me finish 19 please, Mike. I have no further questions. We'll ask 20 the judge for a hearing, we'll ask the judge for 21 sanctions on the basis I've previously said. And we 22 have no further questions at this time, but we may have 23 some further questions either before the election if 24 ordered by the judge, or after the election. 25 MR. MAGUIRE: We just got an e-mail from the 189 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Court. Having reviewed the transcript, the Court is not 3 granting any additional deposition time and is not 4 conducting a status conference or a hearing. 5 MR. PATTERSON: I think the judge's statement 6 from what you just said absolutely rings loud and clear 7 that your attempts to characterize this record as 8 obstructionism, as wasting time, and that it's clear 9 that an independent judge has now determined that that 10 is not the case. You have spent an inordinate amount of 11 time trying to interrupt his campaign talking 50 minutes 12 on 2004 issues that have nothing to do with this. 13 MR. WITHEY: Let me read to you what the Court 14 said, because you're in error. 15 MR. PATTERSON: Wait a minute, wait a minute. 16 MR. WITHEY: Are you done? 17 MR. PATTERSON: No. I want to ask Mr. Rossi a 18 couple questions here. Did you -- 19 MR. LOWNEY: Wait, wait, wait. We're having a 20 discussion about what the judge just said. You were 21 just characterizing it. Mr. Withey wants to put it on 22 the record what the Court actually said, and I think 23 that's appropriate 24 MR. WITHEY: Then you can ask the questions. 25 The Court will not entertain an oral motion 190 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 for -- 3 MR. PATTERSON: Don't lean across the table, 4 please, Mr. Lowney. 5 MR. LOWNEY: This table is six feet wide. I 6 don't think I'm threatening you, and don't suggest that 7 I am. 8 MR. PATTERSON: I'm not suggesting you're 9 threatening me. 10 MR. LOWNEY: We wanted to have a camera in 11 here and you refused it. 12 MR. PATTERSON: You know what the Court rules 13 are with regard to that. If you thought about that 14 ahead of time you would have given us 30 days notice, 15 but you didn't give us 30 days notice, because the fact 16 is you wanted to set for October 15 which was Dino 17 Rossi's birthday, which was the day of the last the last 18 debate which was the day that the ballots were sent out. 19 That's how political this case is. 20 MR. WITHEY: Are you going to allow me to read 21 in what the Court said? 22 MR. PATTERSON: You can go ahead and read it 23 in. 24 MR. WITHEY: Counsel, the Court will not 25 entertain an oral motion for sanctions this afternoon. 191 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Any such motion must be noted and briefed. We will do 3 so. I think that concludes this deposition. 4 MR. MAGUIRE: There's more to the message from 5 the Court. 6 MR. WITHEY: You already read that. 7 MR. MAGUIRE: Why don't you read the whole 8 message. 9 MR. WITHEY: Well, you already stated that. 10 The Court will not extend time for conducting the 11 depositions. I'll be happy to read it. That part of it 12 you got right. 13 Having reviewed the partial transcript 14 provided, the Court is not inclined to grant additional 15 deposition time. Thank you. 16 THE WITNESS: And the record will show we gave 17 them an extra ten minutes anyway. 18 19 EXAMINATION 20 21 BY MR. PATTERSON: 22 Q. You were asked by Mr. Withey about the PDC 23 investigation. Did you in any way control that PDC 24 investigation? 25 A. I'd have to say no control over it. 192 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 Q. Because the PDC, do they investigate what they 3 want to investigate? 4 A. Anything they want to investigate. 5 Q. Do they ask questions that they want to ask? 6 A. Any question they want to ask they could ask. 7 Q. Was there any reason why they couldn't have 8 had access to the minutes that were referred to here? 9 A. I don't know what they have access to or not. 10 They had an assistant Attorney General working for them. 11 Q. Was this a lawyer that was doing this 12 investigation? 13 A. It was actually the compliance person, I don't 14 remember his name though. And they had a number of the 15 PDC staff members working on this, and they had an 16 Assistant Attorney General, more than one working on it, 17 so they were working full time on this effort, and they 18 determined in the end that I was not a candidate for 19 governor, just as we talked about today. 20 Q. Did you fully and completely cooperate with 21 that investigation? 22 A. Absolutely. 23 MR. PATTERSON: No further questions at this 24 time. 25 193 1 UNCERTIFIED ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT 2 EXAMINATION 3 4 BY MR. WITHEY: 5 Q. Mr. Rossi, you stated to the press that that 6 investigation has resulted in the finding that you were 7 not a candidate until October 11th; correct? 8 A. That's what they said. 9 Q. You've also said to the press that those raise 10 the same issues as this lawsuit; correct? 11 A. Very similar issues, yeah. Was I a candidate 12 or not a candidate. 13 Q. But you understand that the PDC did not 14 resolve the issue as to whether these minutes show what 15 they show; correct? 16 MR. PATTERSON: Objection. That's been asked 17 and answered. You don't need to respond to that. 18 MR. WITHEY: Nothing further. 19 (End of rough draft.) 20 21 22 23 24 25